Superhero Filmmakers: Where's Our Watchmen?

Noel Gallagher to thread.

Anyway, I think you're just making my point. That it's weak to argue that Watchmen inspired all future "dark comix." It doesn't mean that argument isn't batted around a lot as conventional wisdom. XXP

Right. The above 'argument' draws directly from this comment of mine, I think:

4. The source material for both Sin City and The Dark Knight is directly influenced by the Watchmen graphic novel; Watchmen as a film may have come later, but it is the earlier films that take so much from it, and not vice versa. People have been trying to make this film for 22 years.

As I said before making that post, it wasn't written for here, but rather another forum I use, and that point (4) was in direct reaction to someone (who hasn't read Watchmen the comic) saying "the film is a transparent and rubbish attempt to make a Dark Knight / Sin City crossover", which, if you know even as little as me about comics (or films), is patently ridiculous. I didn't explain any further than that to said commenter, because there was little point in mentioning dates and timelines and so on when said person would never read the comics in question. But basically it was like he said the CD of Smile by Brian Wilson was a blatant Flaming Lips rip-off.

one thing i found with Rorschach: in the book after he's been unmasked i couldn't wait for him to put it back on. in the film i kinda wanted him to leave it off after the prison break because Haley's own facial expression(s...OK there may only have been one) rocked.

mordy, obv all post-dark knight returns batman comics are, in some way or other, post-miller batman comics, but long halloween seems to be an especially poorly chosen example, seeing as it references pre-silver age batman comic bks by kane/robinson/sprang far more explicitly. similarly, the punisher first appeared in the early 1970s and his character wasn't substantially altered for the grant/zeck punisher mini-series in the early 1980s. miller, too, was clearly inspired by the 1950s EC comics of Johnny Craig, the 1940s/50s Will Eisner Spirit strips, Gil Kane's 1960's Savage mag. i guess the point i'm trying to make - w/out recourse to hysterical caps, even - is that these things are never that clearcut or historically linear, and that yes, in this context 'influence' is not a very helpful or insightful word.

Ward, my point was simply outlining was the argument is. I don't see how else you're understanding my statement. The original comment was that The Dark Knight was inspired by Watchmen. Someone else displayed confusion (the WTF comment above) and so I suggested what the historical argument was. That Watchmen introduced a certain kind of dark superhero narrative that later resulted in something like The Long Halloween - which I believe was the primary reference material for the Dark Knight. (On that I could be wrong.) I then explained that it was a faulty argument, and showed that dark superheroes predated Watchmen. I thought about mentioning Punisher's first appearance, but I know he originally debuted as a villain in Spider-man, and only later (tho I don't know exactly how much later since I'm not a dayan on Punisher) the anti-hero he is in his current form. But even taking the mini (the first occasion where he had his own title) as the starting place, anti-heroes and dark comix still predate Watchman.

So again, I'm not sure how you're arguing with me. I think you're making the exact same argument. Maybe appealing to texts further back in time, but still suggesting that Watchman was not the touchstone for this kind of comic.

one thing i found with Rorschach: in the book after he's been unmasked i couldn't wait for him to put it back on. in the film i kinda wanted him to leave it off after the prison break because Haley's own facial expression(s...OK there may only have been one) rocked.

Yes!

Yeah, Stevem, it's children allowed. At least some kids were sitting next to me which made me want to go all "shoo get out of here, you're not allowed to see this!"

and yet Belgium's rate of juvenile vigilantism pales next to the UK's :(

Okay, I just checked. It's children allowed but forbidden for kids under 16 years old. Hmm. These kids def didn't seem 16 to me. *shrug*

A coworker just now -- "When they took off Rorschach's mask, my first thought was...'Yellow eyes, he had yellow eyes, I swear!'"

i just want to thank this thread for hepping me to the existence of debbie schlussel

Film-as-comment-on-film = you couldn't really use anything BUT Wagner for that scene, though.

It's not like anyone has referenced Apocalypse Now before: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078788/movieconnections

For that matter, based on the age range of most of the people in the audience I doubt that most of them would even know the reference.

What's funny is that there IS a "Valkyries" reference in the book, but I didn't remember it until I was flipping through it again on Friday -- in Hollis Mason's autobiography, it's what his dad's boss at the auto shop was listening to when said boss discovered his wife's affair.

I really had no beef with that song being used in that scene; it probably was done as much to condense stuff from the source material into the movie as much as it was to evoke comparisons (from old ppl, lol) to Apocalypse Now.

I wasn't at your showing Chris, so dunno how old the audience was, but if it was mainly teenage / early 20-something boys, I think you'd be surprised how many of them would know Apocalypse Now.

As for AN references being a bit redundant in 2009; yes, but there's not a lot of point in referencing something no one would notice, is there?

I then explained that it was a faulty argument, and showed that dark superheroes predated Watchmen

If there's any beginning point, it's Frank Miller's run on Daredevil. Sure there were dark superhero stories before, but Miller's Daredevil (and Alan Moore's Miracleman) were the two books that got widespread attention in the comics world. The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen in 1986 raised that attention to the world at large (insert any news article from then that begins "comics are not just for kids anymore")

saw it yesterday and basically agree with everything chris described it as - it was an amazing cinematic spectacle and i'm glad we saw it in a theatre.

our crowd featured mostly late-20s and a large handful of senior citizens (at least two stumbling along with canes).

CD of Smile by Brian Wilson was a blatant Flaming Lips rip-off.

tachyons

Things I wish they had preserved from the book, a list:

- The attack on Nite Owl I
- Rorschach's explicit homophobia
- Nite Owl II/Silk Spectre II on the lam
- Veidt's explicit post-catastrophe power grab (mostly to explicitly justify the end fates of Veidt and Rorschach)

The attack on Nite Owl I

this, at least, in confirmed to be in the final cut.

I was wondering about that, because introducing Mason and then dropping him entirely was weird by any standard.

I was wondering about that, because introducing Mason and then dropping him entirely was weird by any standard.

Not necessarily. Mason's roles in the comic (linkage from Minutemen to "Watchmen", catalyst for Dreiberg to take Rorschach-level action) aren't that necessary in the movie which covered this in the opening credits and the extra-violent mugging and prison riot scenes. If anything, Mason's death is a reminder that the whole thing takes place during Halloween/All Saints (Halloween masks and costume hero masks coming together?)

I was thinking in more of a 'time-spent-on' sense of keeping the story going -- more to say in my next blog on this.

I don't think it came across that weirdly in the movie. He was referenced later on (Dan invites Laurie to come with him to visit Mason after she leaves Jon, just like in the book) so it wasn't like he was forgotten completely; it's just that he was much more of a broad-brush background character than a plot point that spurs Nite Owl II into action.

Patton Oswalt has opinions about things.

i wished there was a lil more of Jon's tour of mars, like him pointing out olympus mons and whatnot, and also his explanation of why he chose a hydrogen atom over the generic atomic symbol... more jon in general basically

oh i think four of him was plenty

oh yeah, the hydrogen atom; meant to list that

patton oswalt is right that the "nerd mafia" shouldn't have beef with snyder

So basically his point is at least this isn't Daredevil? Yay!

Interview with David Hayter, co-screenwriter.

Player hayter

Well, less of an interview, more scattered quotes and backstory. Even so.

I can't believe they cut Nite Owl serving coffee to the people rescued from the burning building. The Archie even had a coffee pot in it.

The ultimate point of "Watchmen," he says, is that people need to "look past their own egos, their own fears, and see what’s truly positive — what’s going to benefit the world and the people around them, and not exclusively themselves."

i thought it was about how fucked up the idea of superheroes is

WHAT?!?!?!

Oh so Veidt IS the hero.

"...that's why we added more punching."

In this guy's mind apparently. . . jeez talk about point-missing.

That said given the way the quote is constructed I can believe that sentence is taken out of context.

I can't believe they cut Nite Owl serving coffee to the people rescued from the burning building. The Archie even had a coffee pot in it.

Silk Spectre was serving coffee. Nite Owl was flying the owlship from the roof. Also, there was a brief shot of Greek coffee "we're happy to serve you" cups.

</ nerd>

would have liked to have seen the Snow Segways...how prophetic were they in the mid-80's?!

hahaha i remember the first time i read it not even thinking twice about it

(xxx-post first two from the comic. last from the movie)

Third ramble. Two more to come.

You know, I saw this again and enjoyed it a lot more.

I do have a feeling its strengths will stand out more for me after a rewatch just because the initial 'oh they changed this' feeling will be gone. Still there's a LOT about what Snyder specifically brought to this that I really, really don't like and I can't imagine liking it any more another time through -- I've already blocked out some scenes in my head that I won't look at again.

the film's main flaw for me is really just snyder's inability to not be on-the-nose about everything

God bless anyone capable of a five-part ramble about anything.

Too kind.

Fourth and next-to-last ramble.