2008 Primaries Thread 2: THE QUICKENING

dude the faux outrage here over hoary old campaign tactics has reached epic proportions. if you guys are this sensitive now over things like, what, the clinton camp saying that obama is going negative, or a radio ad that pretends to be a news bulletin.. christ, your heads are gonna explode in the g.e.! it's as if no one here has ever followed a campaign before. sure, i'd prefer it if both sides dialed down their OWN faux outrage over every niggling issue but just cause they don't - and won't - doesn't mean we have to follow them down that road.

and no one answered my question - what supposedly rovian accusation did the obama camp make?

(just to have some context for the consensus here that the clinton camp is continuing its shameless jujitsu)

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/famecrawler/2007/12/08-15/15_seinfeld_lgl.jpg

What is the DEAL with those politicians?

dude, we get these are sop. we just don't like it in intramural fights, especially when there's good evidence that the losing party is less electable.

and no one answered my question - what supposedly rovian accusation did the obama camp make?

i think they just said she should release her tax returns?

This is an election news update with a major news story reported by the AP. While Senator Obama has crisscrossed Ohio giving speeches attacking NAFTA, his top economic advisor was telling the Canadians that was all just political maneuvering. A newly released document from the Canadian government shows that Obama’s senior economic advisor met with the Canadian Consul General and made clear that Obama’s attack on NAFTA were just, quote, “political maneuvering,” not policy. Political maneuvering, not policy. In fact, the document shows that Obama’s advisor also assured the Canadians that these attacks against NAFTA would not continue. Obama would not want to be, quote, “fundamentally changing the agreement.” As Senator Obama was telling one story to Ohio, his campaign was telling a very different story to Canada. How will Ohioans decide whether they can believe Senator Obama’s words? We’ll find that out on election day. Paid for by Hillary Clinton for President.

can i care about shit and make *your* head explode in the process?

the NYT ran a brief today reporting that the Canadian prime minister denies any such conversation happened.

gabbneb, doesn't that apply to the obama people too?

i dont know how you can be so in denial about a substantial difference between the way obama's campaign and hillary's campaign are running their 'attacks' - even now that obama's 'gone negative' he's not exactly using 'smears' - he was entirely forthcoming about rezko, right? she's just bringing it up again and again because the trial is going on. vs. her not actually releasing her tax information

correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the rekzo "scandal" come down to the fact that they owned property next door to one another? is there anything more than that?

what is the big deal with hillary's tax returns?

gabbneb, doesn't that apply to the obama people too?

by the "obama people" do you mean him and his surrogates or do you mean some dudes on the internet? because all we've seen from the former (so far) is "she's old news and the old way of doing business." also, the evidence is that she's less electable.

what is the big deal with hillary's tax returns?

-- Tracer Hand, Thursday, March 6, 2008 11:11 AM (20 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

dunno. why won't she release them?

hahaha

She has said she'll release them in april anyway and there's twenty years of them in the PD, what gives other than the narcissism of the increasingly small differences between the two candidates.

correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't the rekzo "scandal" come down to the fact that they owned property next door to one another? is there anything more than that?

-- YGS, Thursday, March 6, 2008 11:10 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

he purchased some land adjacent to his property from rezko
it was entirely above board but rezko was under investigation at the time

the extent of the scandal is that (a) he purchased land from rezko (b) while rezko was under federal investigation, and later (c) obama was found to have received donations from rezko associates (which funds were almost immediately disgorged from obama's campaign coffers)

that's pretty much it, i think?

She has said she'll release them in april anyway

-- Ed, Thursday, March 6, 2008 11:12 AM (16 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

when she had hoped to have the nomination locked up

the press has asked for tax returns to see where the clintons' $34 mil in income came from. think of bill's business dealings with that eastern european oil dude and how bill then got him on the opec-like board out of nowhere. see also: mark rich.

"what is the big deal with hillary's tax returns?" is basically exactly what obama's said so far. but the actual big deal is the fact that she's married to a guy who has spent the last 8 years cozying up to the richest people on the planet, so the question is what sort of influence has been bought via a major foundation, next to which antoin tony rezko is a very tiny bear.

the obama camp is claiming that clinton's tax returns are relevant because of her personal loan to her campaign -- arguing that the public has a right to know where her money comes from if she uses it to fund her campaign

"release the documents!!!!" without any evidence of wrongdoing is the ultimate lame smear

ygs i have no idea about rezco, i honestly pay very little attention to these obvious random distractions except when they involve nubile young ladies or a length of rubber hose

She has said she'll release them in april anyway

-- Ed, Thursday, March 6, 2008 11:12 AM

Reason #25 Why Electing HRC Would be More of the Same:

the press has asked for tax returns to see where the clintons' $34 mil in income came from. think of bill's business dealings with that eastern european oil dude and how bill then got him on the opec-like board out of nowhere. see also: mark rich.

^^^^

a fishing expedition, in other words

when she had hoped to have the nomination locked up

-- deej, Thursday, March 6, 2008 12:13 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

yeah but the GE campaign is going on then?

does she have a choice at that point?

i guess it IS possible that bill kept receipts for the money he paid to have vince foster killed, or for the bribes he paid to slavic oil barons

Everybody in the place repeat after me:

'EITHER HILLARY CLINTON OR BARACK OBAMA WILL BE BETTER THAN JOHN MCCAIN AS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA'

i guess it IS possible that bill kept receipts for the money he paid to have vince foster killed, or for the bribes he paid to slavic oil barons

-- Tracer Hand, Thursday, March 6, 2008 11:18 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

has obama actually inferred any of this?

Isn't it pretty to think so?

(xpost)

look basically i think you guys (and howard wolfson) need to quit whinin about s.o.p. campaign tactics because politics is a blood sport and whoever the nominee is (i hope it's obama) is going to have to get down in the mud and the blood and the beer if they actually plan on winning - at which point you will find yourself in the position of either being a hypocrite or actively hoping the democrats lose

i guess it IS possible that bill kept receipts for the money he paid to have vince foster killed, or for the bribes he paid to slavic oil barons

-- Tracer Hand, Thursday, March 6, 2008 11:18 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

has obama actually inferred any of this?

Contract killing be highly deductable.

tracer, ok, we get it, campaign theatre is well and truly bullshit, but it is some bullshit whose consequences will make a huge impact on the entire planet.

look basically i think you guys (and howard wolfson) need to quit whinin about s.o.p. campaign tactics because politics is a blood sport and whoever the nominee is (i hope it's obama) is going to have to get down in the mud and the blood and the beer if they actually plan on winning - at which point you will find yourself in the position of either being a hypocrite or actively hoping the democrats lose

ok, so you can just forever hold your peace about any gender-based attacks on hillary, then

i actually believe that there is a substantial difference between the way Obama has conducted his campaign and the way Hillary has conducted hers. I also believe that so far McCain has conducted a campaign reflective of Obama's moreso than Hillary's, and I would rather that the political discourse take that high road than reveling in smears and tactics that entirely distort the truth.

there is no distortion involved in 'release the documents.'

you're presumably also fine about people attacking hillary on the basis that she's a nerd with a freakish body shape

the NYT ran a brief today reporting that the Canadian prime minister denies any such conversation happened.

-- Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Thursday, March 6, 2008 12:04 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Link?

here's why i am pissed, tracer: the clintons have been willing to burn any bridge they see fit to win the nomination. this is some last gasp bullshit, and sure we're naive but it would be nice to put policy/the party ahead of personal ambition so we can actually LEGISLATE. basically the whole clinton wing of the party has been unilateral -- whether it be burning dean or whatever else -- and it's clear (to me) that they view themselves as being above the party & the voters (the last part is definitely editorializing but there's truth there). the obama campaign has been much more issue-based and has focused way more on the voters/problems/legislation (yes SUBSTANCE) than the clintons have been, who seem eager instead to burn the best candidate we've had for president in years to the ground to ensure that they maintain control of the party. this is some fucking hubert humphrey shit.

'EITHER HILLARY CLINTON OR BARACK OBAMA WILL BE BETTER THAN JOHN MCCAIN AS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA'

I'm not sure I agree with this, honestly. McCain and Clinton both horrible options.

oh susanna we agree!!

for the record, i have no problem with obama asking clinton for her tax returns, it's a classic dumb campaign jab that works, just like the rezco thing, just like anything else so far - this has actually been a very tame primary fight when you think about it

gabbneb i don't get with sexism or racism, regardless of whether they've been s.o.p. in the past, and although "character" attacks are also par for the course it's almost impossible (in this particular primary fight) for them not to veer off into one of these two areas - in this respect i think clinton and obama themselves, with their own words, have been extremely disciplined. they probably realize that "character" attacks in general have been used solely against democrats in the g.e., with disastrous consequences for the entire planet

also YGS OTM

wait, is Obama too nice or too egotistical, I can't figure it out

ygs i don't really know the history of the bridge burning that hillary's done but the way you describe it, it does sound very bad

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080305.wharpleak0305/BNStory/National/home

^^ if the times is saying that PM Harper is denying anything happened, that's... totally wrong

hmm i wonder why obama didn't point that out from the get-go...

oh wait a minute

WHO CARES

The (CTV) report (on Obama & NAFTA) wound up on YouTube and caused an uproar in the U.S. race — influencing the final days of the critical Ohio primary, with every indication it will also play a role in the upcoming Pennsylvania vote.

Mr. Obama has been pilloried by his opponents and faced the most aggressive questioning of his heretofore smooth-sailing campaign.

Clinton used the story to cast him as a double-talking hypocrite — winking and nudging at Canadians while making contrary promises to American voters.

Republican nominee John McCain — who proudly dubs himself a straight-talker — has also seized on the incident to paint the Democratic front-runner as anything but.

When Mr. Obama's campaign and the Canadian government denied the allegation, a leaked document was obtained by The Associated Press written by a Canadian diplomat. It chronicled a conversation between Obama economic adviser Austan Goulsbee and diplomats at Canada's Chicago consulate.

The Obama aide has challenged the wording of the memo and says it characterized the conversation unfairly. A government official said that memo was initially e-mailed to over 120 government employees.

Mr. Harper has rebuffed opposition requests to call in the RCMP and also investigate the source of the original tip that led to the CTV report that triggered the diplomatic tempest. But a team of internal security agents has begun an investigation that will see dozens of bureaucrats and political staff questioned about their knowledge of the leak.

"This kind of leaking of information is completely unacceptable. In fact, it may well be illegal," Mr. Harper told the House of Commons.

"It is not useful, it is not in the interests of the government of Canada — and the way the leak was executed was blatantly unfair to Senator Obama and his campaign.

"Based on what (investigators) find, and based on legal advice, we will take any action that is necessary to get to the bottom of this matter."