Cricket

i think the point about Pietersen is that he is seen as divisive - this means they keep him in the team for his frequent-ish ability to single-handedly win matches with the bat, but put him in the outfield because of his personality. Given Pietersen's need for attention, that solution doesn't look like any sort of solution at all, given that security and confidence seem likely to be vital components of his batting strength. Of course, if they feel that he holes out cheaply more often than he wins matches, then fine, get rid of him - but they should piss or get off the pot. Vaughan also suggested he's got a good cricketing brain, which, although I can't stand him other than when he's got a bat in his hand, seems right, and would do a hell of a lot to perk up Cook's captaincy, which I find slightly moribund.

Speaking of which - the Cook captaincy/batting average thing I don't really get. You're the stats man, AG, and I'm not sure about Cook's before/after captaincy averages, but Cook's batting was superb when he took over as captain, and for some time after that. He outperformed Michael Clarke on this tour (in terms of runs - though the timing of those runs, and the weight they carried was significant also). I think this is more a slump of form akin to the other top order batsmen, possibly with the same somewhat nebulous reasons, as well as the not at all nebulous reason of match defeat becoming psychological defeat, which was a team-wide issue. So, in a sense I agree with you, but for the opposite reason, I'd get rid of him for the captaincy and not the batting.

I heard that Agnew interview, and while it was telling that Cook was hesitant in response to Agnew's question about whether it would be good to get people in from the outside to see what's gone wrong, the tone of his question made Cook's response understandable, ie. 'Yes, I agree, but from the outside people can have a lot of differing opinions and that isn't always helpful.' It sounds like some sort of restructuring will take place, even if it isn't Cook and Flower - Gooch surely has to go - new ideas and new views will hopefully come in that way. Maybe Peter Capaldi?

Feel sorry for the lot of them really, especially Prior, who I love.

I want him to be got rid of as captain not player (however he does need some county cricket behind him as do all the batsmen but it seems that tests arent til june not may , so that might work out for him, prior, bell & kp)

You think its possible that Trott/KP/Bell/Prior/Anderson/Bresnan/Monty/Tremlett will all join Swann in being dumped? (Pretty sure Swann was told he was being dropped and given the chance to 'jump' first)

Or will they blame Carberry/Root/Bairstow/Rankin etc and bring in other young players in their place?
Flower says its an end of an era but with him and cook staying who will they scapegoat? I honestly dont trust them to do the right things.

Also is Finn dumped for the foreseeable future as he wasnt even considered at all for the tests?

Only Stokes & Broad have come out reputations enhanced (cook is obviously safe for now)

Since Flower and Cook are staying on then there's no doubt Gooch is scapegoat for the batting and possibly Saker for the bowlers. But the batsmen & bowlers have to take the blame too. It really does look to me KP is the only senior batsmen that is under real threat.

wdve thought bell has to stay. don't imagine Trott will come back. Prior will compete on the county circuit for the wk spot with others, but he's getting on a bit now isn't he? Carberry and Rankin don't look right. Root will stay I think.

Stokes, Anderson and Broad all ok.

so basically KP to carry the can?

I guess. it feels harsh like you say, annoying as he can be, he did have one good-ish innings. but it's equally difficult to see them embracing him in any way.

all parties may feel a long sunset of county cricket and IPL is best.

A sad end if that's the case as I think he still has a few years left in him. Poor man-management AGAIN if that is the case.

It could be worse though. The most negative spinner ever ashley giles could get the job so gotta keep flower in just to avoid that!

pietersen is the same age as debutant carberry and three years younger than australia's two best batsmen for this series. the england management are insane if they get rid of him and use age as the excuse - it'd be falling for the australian selectors' disease of turning to the unfinished wunderkind for renewal (p. hughes, marsh, khawaja, etc). cook, bell and pietersen are your core - they don't need to be dumped, they do need to work on getting their shit together.

+ should probably select a full-time keeper and find a bowler with express pace too, seems to have worked out ok for us.

Age would only be the excuse for the press if they dump KP. Form/Ability has nothing to do with it either. The only reason he will be dumped is if Cook/Flower dont like having him around.

Total lack of man management amongst our "leaders". That is the problem not KP.

I think its stupid to think that anyone of us can look at this disaster from the outside and see what the problem was. otoh I've had enough of KPs bullshit and he's not even scoring enough runs anymore.

he still top scored!

from http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/25621244

The tactics

This England team got to the top of the world rankings by playing tough, defensive cricket: dry up the runs in the field, wear down the opposition when batting.

That strategy was made to look one-dimensional by an Australia side that rediscovered the aggression and relentless competitiveness that has defined so many of their best teams. England could neither score the runs (five times they failed to total 200 in an innings) nor take the wickets they needed to dictate as of old.

"England play too much by numbers and not enough by instinct out in the middle," says Vaughan.

"I'm not sure England's gameplan has been about beating the best team of the current era, which is South Africa. They have not been at the races."

Those tactics need to change but I dont think they will. At all.

The tactics, as bloodless as they have been, did work for a period of time - I wasn't complaining when we were beating the aussies around and in possession of the Ashes.

We are not as good as SA because we don't have the players that are quite up to the challenge - whatever the tactics.

I remember LJ complaining about the negative tactics all the time. Infact he even stated he hated the way england played he would support the Aussies this winter.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/07/andy-flower-england-team-director-kevin-pietersen

Andy Flower's future as director of the England team may hinge on whether the selectors and the new managing director see an international future for Kevin Pietersen as the side looks to regenerate after the 5-0 whitewash in the Ashes series.

Although Paul Downton, who only took over at the start of the month following the retirement of Hugh Morris, has yet to begin his own assessment of the situation Flower, who has to take ultimate responsibility for the overwhelming defeat, has notionally already been given the backing of his employer, the England and Wales Cricket Board. It is believed, moreover, that both Flower and the captain Alastair Cook are likely to get Downton's official backing.

However, so adamant is Flower that the presence of Pietersen in the dressing room is detrimental to the future development of the side that he is believed to be prepared to resign his position should Downton, James Whitaker, the new national selector, and Cook – if he retains the captaincy – insist that Pietersen should be a part of that process.

Pietersen and Flower have issues that go back at least to early summer 2012 when, without warning, the batsman declared himself unavailable for one-day international matches. Following what were considered inappropriate text messages to the South Africa team regarding the then England captain Andrew Strauss, which subsequently contributed to his retirement, Pietersen was omitted from the final Test of the summer. It was not until the tour of India that winter that he was reintegrated into the side.

If true , I hope it's Flower who goes.

if flower cant get on with KP then Flower needs to go.

Yeah, I'm not unhappy with how this has all gone. The more positive force-for-good-cricket resoundingly prevailed.

KP not a scapegoat either. He looked more gutsy than some.

If KP goes and Flower stays I daresay I shall support the opposition

Im kinda with you lj except i couldnt support the opposition but i dont think i could support england

or at least watch it

who am i kidding. I couldnt give up.

i'd be even more negative than usual tho and bashing flower every chance i get

I'm never that wanker about football but alas I've always been That Guy who supports 'good cricket' with no parochial attachments (bar Worcestershire)

but that tour was a low point worse than anything in my 30+ years supporting England @ cricket. And Flower & Cook have to take the lions share of the blame. That iswhat 'leaders' do. KP is not the problem here.

three lions led by donkeys as they might say in football

I did watch Corey Anderson taking short-form to its logical conclusion instead of partying on NYD. I was ill ok

I did like Flower and he did a good job and if he had been willing to play more positive cricket then id be 100% behind him but if he has a problem with kp then Flower HAS to go. KP is irreplaceable Flower ISN'T.

I also blame Andrew Strauss for quite a lot of this

hah. Strauss was complaining England were too negative! I think it's clear Flower makes the decisions not the Captain.

Maybe that is the problem?

On a different timeline, the ECB don't appoint Moores and KP leads England in glorious Technicolor. A man can dream

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/25636332

Kevin Pietersen not a great player - Phil Tufnell

Phil Tufnell believes Kevin Pietersen's poor shot selection prevents him from being called "a great player".

The former England spinner criticised the manner of the 33-year-old batsman's dismissals during the 5-0 Ashes whitewash against Australia.

"He's a good player who's played great innings, but great players wouldn't have played the shots he has throughout this series to get out," said Tufnell.

He would know I suppose not being a great player himself.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/25638143

this dude knows the score

6.
Herman
31 Minutes ago

KP needs to stay. If Flower has an issue with KP, then Flower has to go.
I would not miss his negative tactics and lack of man-management.

Tufnell a mere 'character', player of not immense substance, public school chancer if I'm allowed free rein of the glasshouse

The fact Peter Such had any sort of Test career should tell you all you need to know about Tufnell. Croft always the best of that bunch

I'd even have Giles as a superior cricketer (with a heavy heart)

one thing for sure Flower and Cook wont pick monty. It's back to the days of a spinner being able to bat and bowl a bit defensively and field. Wicket taking is not important.

grrrr never ever mention that cunt in my presence again! Negative bowler who dropped Ponting in that much when Aussies were in trouble and they ended up winning 5-0.
My worst nightmare is Giles as coach!

Monty is not the answer to anything at all. He has always lacked any guile at all.

I HATE ASLEY GILES

I reckon England should go all-seam until a genuinely good spinner emerges. Or pick Moeen Ali.

Cook
Root
Taylor
KP
Bell
Stokes
Ali
Davies/Buttler
Broad
Onions
Anderson

imo

Andersons fine at home but does he still have enough in him to lead the attack on tour? He would get crucified in SA if he bowls like he did this past 6months. Hopefully hes just been overbowled and with a good rest and only bowling him in shorter spells he will be ok. but bowling 7+ overs a spell has to end. Hopefully stokes coming through will help with that.

All pace attack is fine in England but not on tour.

Do we have any quickies we can work on and maybe introduce in a year or 2?

They've targeted Tymal Mills because he's fast. Speed alone ain't enough. Work on Finn imo

Oh, and Jamie Overton is the other young speedsta

Like I said. Get to work with them. Prepare them. They did it for KP by identifying a talent and working with him until he was ready.
Fuck knows what the coaches have done to Finn. They really need to go.

Bowling coaches should concentrate on psychology above technique. England's recent bowling coaches clearly not doing this with younger bowlers.

swann and anderson hated KP. now Swann has gone maybe things will improve? Or will Anderson and other players say they dont want KP in and back Flower? I can see it coming to that if the ECB dont back flower to dump KP.

If Flower hasn't denied that Guardian story by tomorrow then it must be true and we will have seen the last of KP (and be a laughing stock to other countries).

Clearly they cant drop him due to form as he still outscored and out averaged the other batsmen and they would need to be dropped too.
As for age clarke/rogers/haddin are all older.

good news :)

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/08/andy-flower-kevin-pietersen-england-future?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

wow
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/25650615

All very Phil Brown