writing

so am i, with a 100% acceptance rate for items sent for publication, although the wire probably get fewer emails than the irish times do green ink jeremiads from gaeltacht fire and brimstone types

add u to the list above of ilxors whose work id steal from the internet lg

xp i can't get joptionpane to work i will not derail this thread in pique

haha I wasn't even joking! the very act of bumping this thread probably the spur you needed to get going

I forgot to link this here: Anonymous Writing Group II: submissions thread, deadline 31 October All this talk, let's turn it into some serious wordcount.

So does my character drive the plot or does the plot drive my character? Like, I keep being unsure as to whether I should make things happen to change him in interesting ways or whether I should have a deep idea of him before I make anything happen to him. If that confusion makes sense... I know there are no rules as such, but interested to hear what people think.

My teacher always said they were the same thing. I think he was quoting F Scott Fitzgerald.

Yeah I guess it's all the one process - I find I start with a loose idea of a story and then it changes a bit along the way. I do reach forks in the road where I wonder about what should happen next, and the indecision can be difficult, like... if I press on with an initial idea what if that is not a good idea, then that's kind of my plot, can I delete that and come back to this junction again without it all falling asunder in my mind?

This is prob a confidence problem, really.

this is for a play btw, i think with a story the two are more easily intertwined, with a play events seem more important, things that are dramatically interesting or whatever. but so far not a lot happens in my play, and it's a monologue, so it's more a dude talking about stuff that happened.

there is some good prose on ilx imo

I hope tim at kfc edu contributes to the next anonymous writing thing

xp

As in life, the totality of events in a plot are beyond the control of any one character. Each character controls only himself or herself. But, depending on the story you want to tell, it may easily happen that most or all of the events in your plot consist of actions or words driven by your characters. There may be some impersonal events, like a tornado or a social movement, which help to drive your plot, but where the actual gears of your plot mesh their teeth together will be driven by your characters, whose words and actions emerge from their individual motives and abilities.

For example, you could ask yourself what drives the plot of Robinson Crusoe?

The fated event I guess - what's interesting and difficult is choosing the event, that's a skill I suppose, what event will show my character in an interesting light, what event will change him or get him to where I want him to go. That's the fork in the road that has me posting on ILX instead of continuing.

Demanding character change, introducing problem/resolution as a driver to this, is the kind of formulaic grind that turns me off reading, let alone writing.

Have a character interesting or well written enough and contrived plot is unnecessary, whatever light shines on yr character can pass for plot enough.

tentatively agree

Yeah that's a fair point. I suppose I'd still like to place him in an unfamiliar situation and spin things out a bit before my ending, I have a decent sense of where I want to end things. Sorry, I realise this is of little interest without knowing the thing I'm doing.

xpost

Nah my vehemence isnt for your posting nor questioning its for the visible mechanics (or demand for them as necessity)

Obv a good plot can cover for sketchy characterisation but its a lot more difficult to do imo?

xp
I'd say the character has to have a problem of some sort or he won't be very interesting. He doesn't need to solve it by the end of the piece. He may not even be aware he has a problem, or he may know it but not be able to articulate it. But he has to have a problem.

It's kind of interesting though, the idea of it as trickery or as you say, visible mechanics. Like, is it an organic process or are you really just thinking "what would be most fun"...

xpost he has a problem alright!

I know lots of interesting ppl without a rubik cube irl. If you claim that this cant translate to written or performed creativity then ill stay irl and enjoy that instead. But i disagree.

imagine if people "developed" as much as characters are expected to while going about their business

Itd be cuntish, theyd be cunts, cunts can be good characters but less so if they must develop imo

ime too i think

^undeveloped cunt

(joeks)

Unrepentant cunt, but i reveal a shocking backstory over time that changes the audience perspective tbph

imagine if people "developed" as much as characters are expected to while going about their business

i guess being realistic is not really a necessity for drama though? maybe to be avoided even.

sure, sure. It's the programmatic insistence on one way of doing things I'd object to

like I'm always reluctant to nail my colours to any partic mask in these convos but I find just taking the opposite position feels p comfy

Cunt

mask mast?

no I'm not imo xp

haha why did I write mask

imagine if people "developed" as much as characters are expected to while going about their business

cf http://www.theonion.com/articles/completely-unrealistic-tv-character-has-complex-mu,33855/

my technique for getting writing done is spending all day worrying about not getting writing done then shitting out a couple of hundred words of shite at 3am. i highly recommend it.

shitting out shite.

To avoid my pirate joke xp

do you think it's good to just go with your gut and write every idea as you have it - and then go back and delete stuff later? like it seems weird to me that one might have the plot going one way on a tuesday evening and then chop it back and make it go another way having read over that work on wednesday. so i sort of am trying to be sure before i put things down... and to use lots of pen and paper before adding to my actual draft. again, i know there's no right answer here.

xpost

har de harr d

well for me it's generally not fiction i'm writing so i'm not sure to what extent useful techniques would cross over, but i find having a pretty clearly defined and tiered structure - e.g. within the one big idea there'll be five main smaller ideas, each of which will again break down to a few smaller ideas, etc - is useful, and then i'll choose a section and start filling it with whatever i have and whatever comes to mind. the big structure will almost always mutate and it means things can start to seem wildly fragmented and stuff that seemed good will eventually have to be deleted, but it helps me to be able to pull things together in that bricolage kind of way rather than having that daunting feeling of 30 pages being in your head just waiting to be typed.

do you think it's good to just go with your gut and write every idea as you have it - and then go back and delete stuff later? like it seems weird to me that one might have the plot going one way on a tuesday evening and then chop it back and make it go another way having read over that work on wednesday.

When I write fiction I begin with a scene: an exchange, an observation, or a character in action. I'll usually jot it down beside bits of song titles, observations about relatives or friends, and other bric a brac. I'll write a couple pages. Eventually plot starts to cohere. I can think of only a handful of times when I've thought through the whole plot. Learning in college how Flannery O'Connor and Carver worked this way helped.

I'll usually jot it down beside bits of song titles, observations about relatives or friends, and other bric a brac

do you mean about the character?

Yep. The observations about my own relatives, friends, colleagues often form part of the fabric, even if all it means is a character listens to Van Halen in the car or something.

Interesting.

I kinda come at character from my acting training, thinking about how they move and where they lead with, how they breathe and their physicality, but also lists of traits and characteristics. I find this is good even when not writing drama, but the current thing I'm working on is a monologue I intend to act in myself, so there is that extra tactic of doing little improvs or playing a piece of music and being the guy live (and hoping my flatmates don't hear and think I'm insane.)

I think I finally have something to share. Can someone recommend a workshop in New York?

i think i'd like to start writing because it scratches an itch. it would be cool to write something i thought was really good. i can only write about myself though because i'm too lazy to research what other people are like and i have a poor imagination.

so, it's jumping onto the poetry train for you then

Ha, ha. Poets are so self-absorbed, am I right? Always waxing lyrical about the smell of their own farts. Not like there's a whole strand of poetry that plays upon the impersonal or anything.

epic and narrative poetry are deeply out of style, but lyric poetry can go a lot of directions other than self-absorbed fartistry. in map's case, it also wouldn't require creating characters or plots, or the kind of imagination involved in creating fictional settings and events, so that his professed weaknesses would be far less relevant to his results.

For something I do every day, I don't actually think about writing very much. The actual activity of it, what it takes to do it. I feel like everyone who writes regularly probably has their own patterns and routines and rituals. Just thinking about it now because I realized it's been two hours since I finished the second of three parts of something I'm writing for tomorrow. Each part's about 800 words. And after finishing the second part I took a break, did some other things, got some food, and now I'm circling back to finish the last part. Which makes me think that two hours is about what it takes to recharge from writing 800 words (or at least from writing the second 800 words of the day). Like, my mind needs time to drift and wander and not work so hard for a little while.

Anyway, it's a curious activity.

I work best in the morning, no set pattern though except that I limit myself to a couple pages a day to have reserves left for the next day.

I would like to write more in the morning, a lot of my work ends up requiring later-day writing. Which can exacerbate the fatigue, for sure.

I remember reading about Ian Fleming's schedule, which struck me as ideal. He would get up in his Caribbean manse and have coffee and cigarettes and write for 2-3 hours in the morning, then retire to the pool and spend the rest of the day eating, drinking and socializing.

when i've had a regular practice, i usually choose a time of day AND a writing medium in which i'm working in order to get me into the proper headspace. otherwise i can't write consistently...so for example, i will write from 9-10 or so most nights for a month or two, but only on my phone in bed. or i'll write from 3-5p in blue books i stole from a former employer, etc etc.

right now i am trying to find the best time, and i am afraid it might be the morning, which means i need to wake up earlier and/or give up my morning reading practice.