American Politics Thread 2013: I'm a cool Rodham grandma in the USA

kinda doubt Obama's gonna take this deal as-is, he gets nothing out of it.

and right now he has all the leverage.

And even then, the fuckers are falling back on reducing the deficit and tax reforms? So, like, with the government shut down, and the debt ceiling still a looming threat, the Republicans will back off if Obama meets with them and agrees to cut a whole bunch of spending while further reducing revenues. All while the sequester is still in place? I mean, jesus fucking christ, why even have a government? Is that really the idea? Defund everything? That's no idea at all.

isn't he already saying he's open to the idea of a short-term extension on the debt limit?

President Barack Obama is pleased that Republicans at least seem willing to raise the debt ceiling, if only for a short period, instead of threatening the full faith and credit of the U.S., White House press secretary Jay Carney said Thursday.

Asked about a new House GOP proposal that would extend the debt limit by six-week period, but sustain a government shutdown, Carney sounded an optimistic note but stressed that the administration would need to see the actual bill.

"The president is happy that at least cooler heads seem to be prevailing in House," Carney told reporters at a daily press conference.

“The president strongly prefers a longer term solution," Carney added. "We'll see what the House Republicans propose and see what they are able to pass."

He has all the leverage, xpost, but they're still fucking around. Would Obama have any leverage if they let us default and things went to hell? Wouldn't he be compelled to do something rather than wait for them to get their act together?

i sort of wish our political language was in a cold war european mode (with hard left and ancien regime right in more open contest), because i feel like conservatives can't speak honestly about what they're advocating. it's all codes of codes. that's as far as i'll go in granting the argument about "political correctness". maybe it's because i've been reading right-wingers who are way off the right edge of the map (who speak in those terms giddily)...

what conservatism boils down to is positive endorsement of petty, private tyrannies. that's the positive good. that's how we're supposed to live, and be governed. from the randian whining about the constraints of the mediocre, to right-wonk tut-tutting about unintended consequences, to charles murray (and david brooks, when you game it out) wanting decent people to bully their lessers into being less fat, violent and skanky -- inequalities and the domination that comes from them are natural and good. the boss, the father, the husband, the owner, you're supposed to do what the man says. not everybody gets to be happy, but it's for your own good. it's the state and its fake equality that's unnatural and tyrannical.

i really wish they'd say this! instead of all this upside-down "MLK was a republican!!" troll bullshit. it's a shame for everyone that the furthest right people (your bachmanns, kings, gohmerts etc) all seem, like, cognitively damaged. it's like everybody -- left and right both! -- is dying for someone to take up this line clearly.

The religious right definitely doesn't shy away from endorsing authoritarian bullying as their ideal society, so long as it is theocratic and meets all of their own sect's biblical interpretations. However, if theocracy ever came about in the USA, you'd see it rapidly devolve into sectarian head-banging over the theological details.

xpost

they can't say this because they'd be immediately discredited

cf: right wing resistance to school anti-bullying campaigns; a good synecdoche for the whole thing

xp

thankfully i think the US is way too religiously mixed-up to ever go theocratic. if you were worried.

Honestly surprised we haven't seen an Onion story with Sasha and Malia forced to mow the White House lawn.

they can't say this because they'd be immediately discredited

― Moodles, Thursday, October 10, 2013 12:52 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

if you don't believe the people doing the discrediting, does it matter?

Honestly surprised we haven't seen an Onion story with Sasha and Malia forced to mow the White House lawn.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 10, 2013 5:55 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

did you see this?

http://www.theonion.com/articles/tea-party-leaders-announce-support-for-deal-in-exc,34101

xpost

I mean they will be completely removed from any discussion whatsoever and will probably lose their jobs.

Basically, "political correctness" to these people means "the liberals won't allow me to say every noxious thing that comes into my head". The reality is that it's not liberals keeping them from spouting these things, it's the knowledge that society at large will reject them, other conservatives included.

yeah I mean a lot of it comes down to "sharing is hard," possibly. having to acknowledge and respect other people is just ugh you know?

Wait. An Objectivist buys insurance?! Is there anything more collectivist than sharing risk via insurance?

xpost

I think it's more that there are certain things that we've agreed as a society (including conservatives) are abhorrent. For example, racism, sexism, denying the poor food or basic medical care, etc. However, there are plenty of white conservatives who realize that on the one hand these things are bad in the abstract, but that it's still to their advantage to pursue policies that are racist, sexist, classist. So they are forced into a position where they need to advocate for these things using a language that obscures their true purpose, otherwise they'd be revealing to others and to themselves that they desire something that's been rejected by society overall.

This gets chalked up to liberal political correctness, but it's really a subconscious recognition that they know the things they want are wrong.

since the French revolution conservatism stems from a fear of losing property. That's where their fears – their prejudices – come from. Look at every major battle of the last 100 years: civil rights, the regulation of business.

Just think of all the property the rich lost when slavery was outlawed. That was some serious loss of capital investments.

ron paul's still pissed about it

yeah moodles i see what you mean, but, i think a whole tranche of the country only agrees to that stuff in public. "there are certain things that we've agreed as a society...are abhorrent", well, really? i think this is all very much still what politics are about.

liberals: "we had a deal! this stuff is bad! come on now"
conservative: "don't tell me what to think! you keep changing the rules!"

goole OTM

"you keep changing the rules!" = the world keeps changing to demand basic human rights for more and more groups of ppl whose needing to have rights is inconvenient for us

lots of people don't even bother to agree with that stuff publicly; hell, they're bending over backwards to pretend that racism/sexism doesn't even exist, all with a straight face

well it wouldn't be a gay face

touche

Is there anything more collectivist than sharing risk via insurance?

ha, but i think it's cool as long as it's not coerced. it might just be a smart exercise of your personal power to contract. now, if you're forced into the risk pool and paying premiums, it's ultra-tyranny.

if theocracy ever came about in the USA, you'd see it rapidly devolve into sectarian head-banging over the theological details.

http://skylightpress.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/life-of-brian.jpg

“This is the most closed, control freak administration I’ve ever covered,” said David E. Sanger, veteran chief Washington correspondent of The New York Times.

@ZekeJMiller: Reid on talks before shutdown ends: “not gonna happen”

hey our friend nate silver is back http://www.grantland.com/fivethirtyeight/story/_/id/9802433/nate-silver-us-government-shutdown

BREAKING NEWS 6:11 PM ET Obama Rejects Republican Proposal for Short-Term Debt Limit Plan

awesome!

Cantor and Ryan are saying things like "he didn't say yes or no, we'll talk more later" but that kinda says enough.

lol he didnt say yes or no he just said come back with something i can agree to

he didnt say yes or no, he just silently walked out of the room and turned the lights off on us

Krauthammer just said Obama pulled a "bait and switch" and the GOP should "hold him to it." Below him onscreen the graphics showing the Dow surging 300 points.

I like how GOP negotiating involves never giving up anything. genius!

"Judge" Napolitano, stolid beneath red-frosted tips, barked that HARRY REID dammit is being more of a moral leader than rigid Obama.

Krauthammer farted

lol reid beat obama to rejecting the gop plan by like half a day

Greg Sargent ‏@ThePlumLineGS 1m
NBC/WSJ poll: Obama's political standing stable; Congressional GOP approval now at 24%: http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/10/20903624-nbcwsj-poll-shutdown-debate-damages-gop

The President had a good meeting with members of the House Republican Leadership this evening; the meeting lasted approximately an hour and a half. The President, along with the Vice President, Treasury Secretary Lew, Denis McDonough and Rob Nabors listened to the Republicans present their proposal. After a discussion about potential paths forward, no specific determination was made. The President looks forward to making continued progress with members on both sides of the aisle. The President’s goal remains to ensure we pay the bills we’ve incurred, reopen the government and get back to the business of growing the economy, creating jobs and strengthening the middle class.

lol

Drew Cline ‏@DrewHampshire 5m
Best WSJ poll Q: If you could vote out every member of Congress in next election, including your own rep, would you? 60% yes, 35% no.

Waffle, but I like how it boils down to "That's nice, try again."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/house-goper-defunding-obamacare-is-off-the-table

"They don't want this law to go into effect at all, but that's obviously not going to happen at this point."

it was obviously not gonna happen several months ago you fucking jackass

Just another last minute swith n bait, thanks obama!

Christopher Hayes ‏@chrislhayes 2m
Reminded of @schaller67 's very prescient thesis about how bad it is for a national party to rule from the House. (see 1980s D's)

dont know what hes talking about but i am intrigued

the other Chris, the fan of Tip 'n' Ronnie, can explain

chrislmayes