whiskey

Any of you ever had Smooth Ambler 14 Year Old Very Old Scout Bourbon? It's LDI sourced, apparently actually a mix of 14-, 15-, 17- and 19- years. I bought a bottle last year, I want to say, but haven't opened it yet. It's another one that earned a lot of positive comparisons with PVW.

No, not tried. Do you remember what you paid?

Yeah, I paid ... $60? $65? Something like that.

pretty damn impressed with Stagg Jr. It's definitely reminiscent of the regular Stagg, but my old bottle is long gone so i can't compare.

"reminiscent" is definitely the right word--you can really feel that ~5 or so years of age missing from stagg jr.

I'm going to be in Louisville for a weekend of eating and drinking (and a private tour of Willett). Can any of you think of any bottles or brands that I can only get in Kentucky? The downside of being so (relatively) close in a city with great distribution is that a lot of "exclusive" brands make their way up here pretty easily, so I don't want to waste my dollars or trunk space on stuff I can get at home. I may try to get another bottle of Ancient Ancient Age, since you can't see to find that in Chicago anymore.

AAA would be my first choice. Hell, I'd like a bottle of that myself just to try it!

i don't know of much that is kentucky-only. agree if you find some aaa 10 year you should scoop it up. i don't know exactly what's going on with that brand but wouldn't assume it'll be coming back your way.

Yeah, it's weird. I have a bottle left, but I think it's a brand, or sub-brand, that's just no longer making it out of Kentucky.

well i think there's a question of whether the 10-year version is going to continue to exist in general

Yeah. This world is so slippery it's impossible to get a straight answer on anything. Age statements, sourcing, distribution, allocation ... it's all a close to the vest mystery.

Got a tasty bottle of single barrel Willett 8 down there, a bottle of the AAA 10 (which I think is discontinued?) and best of all, a couple of bottles of Elijah Craig 12 barrel proof, which you can't find around here, and which they had a couple of lingering bottles of at the Heaven Hill distillery at a slightly higher proof than got distributed. Excited!

Happened to be down there during the PVW/BTAC release, too, and needless to say, it sounded insane. People lining up at 4am, waiting in long lines for a shot at a handful of bottles. Nuts. Stopped into the Bardstown staple Toddy's and the folks behind the counter were gleefully bitching about the Van Winkle stuff, since every other call at the store was some dude looking for a bottle. They said they got two bottles of each, and they were gone instantly.

nice haul

Putting my tin hat on for a second, is there anything in place to stop shop employees from setting aside what little stock they get of Van Winkle and BTAC? I was in a store today, and the guy behind the counter was talking to his coworker about seeing PVK in a bar going for $90 a shot. Is there any chance in hell, that should should the shop get even a bottle of anything, that it would make it anywhere remotely to a shelf, let alone some customer on a waiting list, when the guy behind the counter can conspire to sell it for multiples above MSRP and pocket whatever he wants?

not unless you're in a control state. i've seen some pretty insane van winkle markups around here.

i think the best you can do is let the van winkles know if you are aware of bottles marked at way above retail. they have asked for that kind of info before, though i'm not really sure what they do with it.

The Van Winkles don't care. Or at least, they may care, but they say they can't do anything about it.

My point is less the markup and more that these bottles, at least in a major market like this one, are now pretty much impossible to get unless you know someone on the receiving end of an allocation who can grab a bottle for you, never mind what they are asking or you are willing to pay. There's simply no way to get it on the primary market, and that trend is trickling down to other bourbons as well.

I've noted before that this has only accelerated to a ridiculous degree. Two years ago I got a bottle of PVW15 for $50 with minimal effort. Last year took a bit more legwork but I got a bottle, once again at the store, for $80. This year things have become so obscured and behind the scenes that short full-time effort and a ton of luck, never mind money, there seems to be absolutely no way. That's kind of lame, because the implication is that almost every single bottle is earmarked or otherwise claimed before the allocations even go out.

who gives a shit, drink some other bourbon imo

"single barrel" is such a weird elitist thing

I say this as someone who watched this middle-aged couple browsing the whiskey at Costco, and they surely had no idea what was good or bad. They were looking for "single malt" and couldn't figure out the scotches, then were seeing the phrase "single barrel" and then muttering "oh, but this is bourbon..." and wandering back and forth.

imo single malt scotches are fine, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with blends

What's elitist about single barrel bourbons?

xpost There's plenty of other bourbons to drink, obviously. Like I said, though, it just sets a bad precedent, since it helps drive all prices up, and makes even less rare bottlings sometimes hard (or harder) to find. Unless all bourbon is the same to you, in which case, absolutely, get the cheapest you can find.

Doesn't "single barrel" inherently imply a whiskey that is individualistic?

And I didn't exactly post anything like "buy cheap bourbon instead because they're all the same to me", don't know how you teased that meaning out exactly. If finding the stuff is too hard it isn't like there aren't a lot of other varieties waiting to be consumed. Unless you're buying not to consume but to collect, in which case have at it. I can only afford to drink the bourbon I buy.

having a collection of whiskey that no one could drink sounds like torture

Who said I wouldn't drink it or even that i was actively seeking it? The pvk hoopla is helping to drive up all prices, not to mention making it difficult to find many bottles aged over 12 years. I'm thankful for the glut of good whiskey.But my wallet is less thankful for the way things are trending.

Single barrel just means from the same barrel rather than a blend, no?

pvw has almost nothing to do with the lack of aged stock--that has to do with industry sales projections from the 90s.

it's the overall resurgence in bourbon as a category since the mid 2000s

Yup, but if you know nothing about whiskey and are just wandering back and forth in Costco mumbling about "single <something>" I am going to sigh

Pvk has nothing to do with lack of aged stock, but it is the symbolic flagship of the bourbon boom. And by fostering the boom, it has helped play a role in the pricing of what aged stock is available, imo. Elijah Craig 18 was priced around $50, then they discontinued it. Ej 21 is going for nearly three times that.

BTW, to show you how nuts this has really gotten, my friend Jay went to pick up up his daughter at daycare the afternoon before we all left for Kentucky, and on the way out one of the day care providers asked him if he was going to pick up a bottle of Pappy Van Winkle when he was down there! That's just bonkers that the likely only household name bourbons are the usual ubiquitous lower end stuff and, oh yeah, also the most elusive, expensive bourbon in the nation. Another example, observed above: as of just a couple of years ago, you could easily find Old Rip 10 (which is nothing special) on shelves. Last year the store limited my purchase to one bottle. Now it's an allocated bourbon considered part of the Van Winkle family, as if someone would waste their wait-in-line quota on the 10-year.

So no, PVK is hardly the end-all, but its prominence , combined with a general dearth of older aged stuff, is certainly encouraging prices to go up and limiting the availability of other bottlings. At Heaven Hill last weekend they showed how they were expanding at a massive rate, and Heaven Hill is already a pretty massive operation. But you can bet they're going to sit on more of their barrels longer, given the price they can get for the older ages.

BTW, anyone else read about this so-called Unity Bourbon?

http://chuckcowdery.blogspot.com/2013/09/master-distillers-unity-bourbon-to.html

can't believe some person who works in daycare would know the name of a high-end liquor!

I get what you're saying. But you know what? I sure wouldn't expect some 20-something working day care to know the name of this particular high-end liquor. I mean, why would I? But the fact that she did underscores my point that this particular high-end liquor is disproportionately well-known considering its scarcity.

There have been articles about that very point

Exactly! But reading about it in some Wall Street Journal trend piece and encountering it in everyday life are very different things.

I mean, make up your mind, whiskey thread. A few posts above a couple was mocked for ignorantly searching the aisle at Costco for single-something bourbon. And then I get mocked for failing to realize, well, duh, every single person knows about this bourbon, especially some kid working at the daycare center.

who gives a shit, drink some other bourbon imo

― dan m, Tuesday, October 15, 2013 5:44 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

honestly i feel the same way. there are so many other good bourbons (at good prices) that i don't need to waste any time/energy worrying about getting a bottle of PVW. it's getting to be similar in the beer world, people lining up around the block to get some limited edition barrel-aged imperial bullshit. it's no slight against the beer or the bourbon -- i've never had it but i'm sure PVW is amazing -- but unless you're a collector as dan m mentioned and you really just need to have it the same way joe bussard needs a some particular gospel 78, just get something else!

this is just what happens when your beloved boutique product category becomes not just a veblen good but a veblen good with a primary market based on connections and proximity to resellers as well as willingness to pay stupid money

the prices of entry level 10/12 yr single malt scotches has been increasing well above inflation too

a couple years ago i got a bottle of black maple hill at astor wine & spirits in nyc
they've never had it whenever i go back
and in another store i went to last time i was in nyc the clerk told me it was now as hard to get as PVW?
anyone ever see this biz?

i've seen black maple hill at places around boston

now that i have a good friend who lives just across the border in VT and can bring me stuff i order to his house, anyone recommend a good booze e-tailer?

PVW is pretty easy to get here at my local shop. expensive though, priced roughly 1$:1£

i think that's true about the 16 yr old black maple hill. haven't seen it around in forever and last time i did it was 160 dollars.

my brother in law gave me a bottle of 20 yr old A.H. Hirsch last christmas, which i dont know much about other than it's a legendary and no longer produced bourbon. still haven't opened it!

I had the 10, was alright I guess. not all that

might pick up one of the 12s/15s if I can get over the price

recently went through a bottle of lagavulin 16 distiller's edn like it was water. so good

ardbeg uigeadail, lagav, & caol ila are my current faves

today im drinking this

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/417230/Lidl-is-tops-for-Bourbon-lovers

which is surprisingly good for under £15 ie most of that goes in tax

the wine society are selling a 25yr old islay at £33 which i will probably order too, they used to sell a 21 yr old highland park secondary bottling for about £28 which wiped the floor with anything else at that level

a couple years ago i got a bottle of black maple hill at astor wine & spirits in nyc
they've never had it whenever i go back
and in another store i went to last time i was in nyc the clerk told me it was now as hard to get as PVW?
anyone ever see this biz?

― socki (s1ocki), Wednesday, October 16, 2013 10:14 AM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

age-stated bmh is long gone, sadly. i have about a third of a bottle of 16-yo left, it's nice stuff.

i remember towards the tail end of its availability here the price at every store went up about 40-50 bucks from what i paid, that was cool

my brother in law gave me a bottle of 20 yr old A.H. Hirsch last christmas, which i dont know much about other than it's a legendary and no longer produced bourbon. still haven't opened it!

― ryan, Wednesday, October 16, 2013 10:19 AM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

wow nice bro in law!

he also got a 23 year old pappy at the same liquor store in a posh part of Austin.

I mean, make up your mind, whiskey thread. A few posts above a couple was mocked for ignorantly searching the aisle at Costco for single-something bourbon. And then I get mocked for failing to realize, well, duh, every single person knows about this bourbon, especially some kid working at the daycare center.

Josh, I wasn't mocking anyone, just shaking my head at the fact that people are approaching whiskey -- which is good! -- after reading articles that are specious or emphasize certain brands or phrases. It's whiskey, it's all good, and if you don't know anything about it and don't know the difference between scotch and bourbon or know what the difference between single barrel and single malt are, then you're likely not going to be spending your money very well.

That's what I was kind of depressed by, people who have likely read a Wall Street Journal trend piece, or more likely an article in their local paper that was inspired by that trend piece, and decide they're going to go search out this delicacy. Not every single person is going to know about Pappy Van Winkle or whatever other rarely-found whiskey is, but it's likely that a number of people who do know don't have knowledge much deeper than those trend pieces.

In other words, there's a reasonable chance that the person who knows of PVW is the same person who has no idea what the difference between whiskies is. And that kind of sucks.

in sum, pr campaign: successful
i have managed to never hear of that rare drink before today, but i bet ppl who read magazines have seen the trend piece!

btw I bought a bottle of single barrel bourbon last night, eagle rare, $26, glug glug glug