Shall we anticipate the FIFTH SEASON of the AMC series "Breaking Bad"? I think I may.

listening to critics take seriously this Nussbaum theory that Walt died in the first scene is like listening to Truthers.

re: DVD I guess the fact that they kept Jesse himself alive on their own compound shows that they're not all that concerned with destroying evidence.

remember jack's reaction when he realised jesse had ratted todd out? he IMMEDIATELY stormed out of the house. snitching strikes a slightly irrational nerve with him.

it wasn't that well written though - i agree this was a good pre-cursor, but walt should have said "partners with a RAT, you teaming up with RATS" instead of emphasising the word "partners" all the time, and then jack is all "partners! how dare you?" and says "rat" like once.

The Nazis were basically petty thieves and thugs for hire with dodgy prison contacts who've lucked their way into an international multimillion drug operation. They're not Gus.

Jack also showed when he killed Hank that he's quite willing to cruelly extend the wait before he kills you, even if he's decided to do it ages ago.

The Nazis were lame all across the board.

I don't think anyone is taking the Nussbaum "theory" seriously. But there are people who are happy to fantasize about it, because it makes an OK ending to an otherwise excellent show perhaps more interesting and/or palatable.

Question here: does anyone here really think this final episode slots comfortably into the 'all-time" TV pantheon? The show, sure. But I've yet to encounter anyone who puts this finale on par with the best TV has mustered in the past.

I think the final episode could be described as 'workmanlike'. It wrapped everything up nicely but it wasn't mindblowing

'I did it for me' was one of the best lines of the whole show though

I don't think it does, no. Season 4 finale already did the "Walt outwits the bad guys and kills them, comes on top" thing, but with a better bad guy (I'll say it again, using Nazis as your final antagonist was too easy) and a more interesting plot (getting uncle Salamanca involved was a cool and unexpected twist, and Walt having to poison Brock meant his victory was actually more ambiguous in that episode than in this one, where no innocent people got hurt at all). The best parts of the finale where the character interactions, especially especially the final meetings between Walt and Skyler and Walt and Jesse. I wouldn't have minded if the finale had had no violence and killing at all, just character moments like those.

(x-post)

there was no way to pull another Gus Fring out of the woodwork given how many years it took him to set up. unless they had ended the entire series with Fring, it was always going to end with whatever patchwork interim baddie the scene could choke up. that it was a fledging Nazi group not that farfetched IMO.

I realized, after all of our "motivation" talk here last week, that they made it pretty clear that Walt went back to kill the Nazis because they killed Hank. (That little flashback in the house and the talk with Skylar seal this.) Walt also blames himself for Hank's death, so he plans to die as well.

They weren't really Nazis, just asshole bikers with dodgy tattoos.

it was always going to end with whatever patchwork interim baddie the scene could choke up. that it was a fledging Nazi group not that farfetched IMO.

An interesting question is, though, would season 5 have been better if there was no obvious bad guy at all, or if Walt had become the ultimate bad guy, like the season 5A finale seemed to be implying? There was no obvious baddie during 5A, and I'm not sure if it was necessary to put the Nazis into that position for 5B.

They weren't really Nazis, just asshole bikers with dodgy tattoos.

― Chuck_Tatum, Wednesday, October 2, 2013 9:14 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i have been trying to explain this to my friends for weeks

I think breaking bad is good

LOL dodgy tattoos. Sorry, guys with swastikas on your necks: swastka tattoos is all it takes in my book, apologize in advance for my crippling prejudice.

Walt's the ultimate bad guy, the Nazis are the consequence of his inability to control his empire.

None of this would have happened if Todd had never taken a job at Vamonos Pest.

what about doggy tattoos are those ok?

This is behind a paywall but it's an excellent read (it's also in his book)

http://newyorker.com/archive/2004/02/16/040216fa_fact_grann

I've come around on Nussbaum's theory-- if you re-watch the opening scene and the way it's shot and edited there's def more going on there than walt looking for some keys. and even before reading her review it was hard to miss how ~dreamy~ in tone the whole ep was compared to the last few

I don't actually believe it's how VG ~secretly~ had Walt really die while giving the fans what they wanted for the next 60 mins, just that artistically and thematically something shifts in that opening scene that allows TV universe Walt to meet a different end than BB universe Walt.

I'd even go so far as to say it's an easter egg dropped at the start to pre-empt the whole morality/tidyness debate going on here. It's VG saying you've watched this evil fuck for 60 hours, what are you rooting for in the next hour?

Yeah, like I said above, when Walt is praying for a miracle, and then the keys drop to his hand, it's like the writers are saying, we'll here's your miracle, things are gonna finally go exactly as you planned. Almost a literal deus ex machina. I'm pretty sure it was all intentional.

I wouldn't say it's anything like a dream, but there is a suggestion of the supernatural or a guiding hand (justice? the divine hand of order?) that accepts Walt's willingness to sacrifice his own life and makes sure everything goes as he planned.

Think if Walt has died in the car his in-death fantasy a) would have allowed him to talk to his son and b) would have been unlikely to anticipate Jesse's exact predicament.

But I also believe the Seinfeld finale is a brilliant re-telling of Camus' The Stranger so

xposts

c) there would be a test he hadn't stufied for

can someone with a better memory than me confirm/deny that the only scene in the finale that doesn't have walt in it is the one scene w/jesse still being a slave? (i guess also jesse driving away could count)

xpost studied

CRUCIAL POLL: Was Jack's Gang Nazis or Just a Violent Gang with Dodgy Tattoos?

the supernatural or a guiding hand (justice? the divine hand of order?)

~television~ imo

I wouldn't say it's anything like a dream, but there is a suggestion of the supernatural or a guiding hand (justice? the divine hand of order?) that accepts Walt's willingness to sacrifice his own life and makes sure everything goes as he planned.

― I got the glares, the mutterings, the snarls (President Keyes), Wednesday, October 2, 2013 9:41 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The Breaking Stand

The dream-like quality is partly what made me invoke David Lynch. That and all the, you know, Lynchy stuff.

I don't know and we may never know if Walt died in the car, but frankly, it's at least a plausible reading which also manages to cover uncovered bases (how did he get home or to all those places/people when he's the subject of a national manhunt, mere weeks after revealing himself alive in NH, all while seriously ill? Etc.). Obviously it's still not a clean narrative, but it's way to make things work for those who aren't convinced this last episode worked. Certainly it's a better hypothesis than the actual unsatisfying endings of The Sopranos, or Lost, or Seinfeld or whatever.

this has the potential to become the Inception debate, ugh....

we may never know if Walt died in the car

seriously?

It's not plausible at all!

if Walt died in the car, the owner would never wanna listen to his Marty Robbins tape again...

we may never know if Walt died in the car

I only say that because all VG has to do is say it's true, then presto, it's true. I don't believe it myself.

I think the dream explanation would otherwise work, except that Walt didn't know Jesse was being kept as a slave, so it'd be weird that was able to know that in his dreams.

(I'm not saying that's it'd be a good solution, but the Jesse thing is the only detail that stops it from being plausible.)

What if Walt actually died of cancer at the beginning of S1 and everything after was a dream???

yeah how about an epilogue where s1 walt wakes up from a nap after his diagnosis and says no way I'm going to even consider meth manufacture etc

I will say it's yet another sign the final episode didn't do much for many when there are so many people actually openly expressing a preference for an "it was all a dream" ending.

ehh, not 'many' itt, nor in my circle of BB friends

just a lonely Josh in Chicago, thinkin 'baout things

guys remember what kanye said. when an artist makes something there are only two words you need to be saying

THANK YOU

Thank you, Kanye.

xpost But some pretty prominent critics! Frankly, that any would humor it, the most hoary of TV/movie cliche twists, is telling.

I thin kthat speaks more to the prevalence of media that have used that trope more than any such *desire*

I will say it's yet another sign the final episode didn't do much for many when there are so many people actually openly expressing a preference for an "it was all a dream" ending.

― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, October 2, 2013 8:55 AM (2 minutes ago)

i LOVED the final episode and this theory makes me love it even more

yeah how about an epilogue where s1 walt wakes up from a nap after his diagnosis and says no way I'm going to even consider meth manufacture etc

My favourite theory like this is that all of BB was a book Skyler was wrote after Walt's cancer diagnosis, since during season 1 it was mentioned she was writing a book. This would explain why the story is so pulpy, and also the book'd be a not-so-subtle way for Skyler to tell Walt he should be more open and communicative.

I think the dream explanation would otherwise work, except that Walt didn't know Jesse was being kept as a slave, so it'd be weird that was able to know that in his dreams.

(I'm not saying that's it'd be a good solution, but the Jesse thing is the only detail that stops it from being plausible.)

― Tuomas, Wednesday, October 2, 2013 9:52 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah thats why i was asking, i think as a theory its super lame but you could at least argue it if the entire episode took place from walt's perspective. i do think there was a strong dreamlike quality which used to be a regular feature of breaking bad and was something they had gotten away from a bit, but theres a difference between "dreamlike quality" and actually asserting that the episode was a dream.

my whole point is that it WASN'T hoary and cliche

its on some removal of the 4th wall shit not some "its a twist!"

There are a lot of things that wouldn't work if it were a dream/ghost Walt. But per one of (the often oddly perceptive) comments on the New Yorker piece: Of course Walt couldn't dream this. It should be admitted though that Nussbaum's observations on the extreme un-realism of the events in "Felina" are absolutely correct. That's what a few pro critic pals of mine have a problem with as well: that the ending somehow does not stay true to the moral universe set up by the series, to a surreal, dreamlike extreme.

But hey, it was competent and satisfactory, so the fact that it fell short of greatness really shouldn't be held against it. Good enough is better than 99.9% of TV.