Shall we anticipate the FIFTH SEASON of the AMC series "Breaking Bad"? I think I may.

Like Walt is both hero and villain throughout and the last episode really played off that ambiguity, but the Nazis are the Pandora's box that he's unleashed and it's impossible not to want him to win against that.

Like overall I don't think this episode quite had the wow factor of Hank vs the twins or Jesse and Gale or the Fring takeout but equally I don't think they were going for that.

whoever said upthread the last two eps were basically extended epilogue is otm.

Starting to think the ricin cigarette is for Lydia, they made a point of showing she takes sweetener in her tea in the last episode.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, September 24, 2013 3:12 PM (1 week ago)

Called it.

I think Jesse will probably have to go to Alaska, but I'd guess that his future depends on whether or not his videotaped confession is still in the middle of this massive crime scene.

Only real complaint was that Aaron Paul was underused throughout this episode, and I suppose throughout the second half of the season, his switch from accomplice to victim robbed the character of a lot of what was compelling about him.

yeah, this was a shame

for me it's not so much about walt winning or losing or paying for his crimes, more that up to now (in this season at least) the events mostly felt grimly believable - in terms of the bb world. but this episode didn't work like that, even in fictional terms so much depended on fluke and luck and coincidence and getting the angle of a transformerbot machinegun exactly right and a couple of billionaires having little-to-no home security. it worked entirely on walt's terms.

I agree with this totally. As a whole I liked the series a lot, but one thing I thought it kinda messed up was sitting on the fence when it came to the geekish masculine power fantasies at the center of Walt's character development. I know they often criticized this type of masculinity, showing the awful consequences of Walt's decisions, but just as often they showed how Walt had become this science nerd badass, breaking away from his miserable family existence and harpyish wife, taking down dangerous gangsters and building empires on his wits alone. It's because they kept pandering to these type of fantasies for so long that there was such a large "team Walt" righ until the end. (And the finale probably made many "team Walt" members feel right in thinking he was the hero.)

I didn't mind the idea of Walt as the geek hero outwitting drug lords at the end of season 4, partly because it made for such a suspenseful and exciting season finale, and partly because it was evident this wasn't the end of the story. If the whole series was the story of Walt's rise and fall, well, there had to be the rise before the fall, and Walt taking down Gus was obviously it. And most of season 5 was indeed about the fall, how Walt wasn't able to control his newly established empire, showing the unfeasibility and the cost of his power fantasies. This culminated with "Ozymandias", and it felt like the writers were finally deconstructing the idea that Walt was ever able to be this terrifying crime lord he imagined himself to be. This was emphasized by the next episode, showing how Walt at his most weak and emasculated.

But then with the finale it felt like they were yet again pandering to "team Walt". Once again Walt was the badass geek hero, once again he was shown to use wits and scientific talent to meet an impossible situation. And this time he got pretty much everything he wanted, this time (unlike with Gus) there were no innocent victims; quite the contrary, he even managed to save Jesse, even though that wasn't part of his plan. So the masculine fantasy part was played until the very end, it was never fully deconstructed.

And yeah, I get that there was ambiguity in the episode, I get that the scenes with Skyler and Holly and Flynn were meant to emphasize the damage Walt had done, what he had lost... But the finale still ended on a high note for Walt, he got what he wanted, he got rid of the villains (and making the ultimate villains vile Nazis felt way too convenient, because of course you're gonna root for anyone who goes against; even Gus was shown to be a kinda of tragic villain, not totally vile), he managed to help his family after, he died nobly while saving Jesse instead of withering away to cancer in a jail cell.

I had no problems with the idea of Walt trying to redeem himself for one last time, but I don't think he should've been so successful at it. If the finale had shown him trying to set things right, but failing at it because the wheels he'd set in motion were too big for him to tackle, that would've been a more courageous way to end the whole series. But this "ambiguous" ending felt like the writers wanted to have their cake and eat it too, like they didn't want to upset either those who wanted Walt to win, or those who wanted him to fail. If they had shown him fail, that would've been more truthful to general spirit of the show, and to the idea that Walt's power tripping was always wrong.

I think Jesse will probably have to go to Alaska, but I'd guess that his future depends on whether or not his videotaped confession is still in the middle of this massive crime scene.

I though the role of the videotape was weirdly unclear during the last three episodes. The Nazis don't invade and rob Marie's house immediately after the shootout in the desert, we know that Marie finds out about Hank's death before the house is burgled. Why then, doesn't Marie take the videotape to the cops? Why is it still in the house? Why do the Nazis assume (correctly, it seems) there was only one copy of the tape? Since they were implicated by Jesse's confession, shouldn't they at least consider the possibility that the cops have a copy of the tape? Shouldn't this make them a bit wary of continuing to cook meth on their farm?

Marie is with Skylar and Walter Jr while the Nazis are burgling the house, we see her being driven back by the police and then swiftly driven away when they see she's been broken into.

the show has always been ludicrous. plus walt died and his family hate him, it wasn't "redemption".

there was nothing "ambiguous" about the ending.

Marie is with Skylar and Walter Jr while the Nazis are burgling the house

Yeah, but before that Walt had already confessed Hank's death to Skyler and Flynn, and the cops already knew about that. (Hence they were tracking his phone call.) Why was the house unguarded? Why did Marie leave the tape there?

Just hazarding a guess here but I think Marie might have had other things on her mind at that point?

Is it even clear that Marie would have known about the tape? Can't remember if she was there when it was made.

Any ambiguity comes from the fact that Walt died 'peacefully' (of a gunshot wound) (in a Nazi drug thug enclave) with a smile on his face. Alone. With his family hating him. And practically everything he worked for gone. And no guarantees at all that anything he tried to put in place would happen.

I don't think Marie knew about the tape.

Like, Marie would have run out to find Skylar when she heard that Walt had stolen the baby, and would have been there up until the point when she found out about Hank. At no point in this would she have had the presence of mind to worry about a video tape in her front room.

The ending isn't ambiguous but it is ambivalent I think, and all the better for it.

He died and got some personal closure. That's so different from redemption. The very concept of "redemption" implies some duty on the part of the writers to either tell a moral story or not tell one, which is a bullshit way of looking at culture but you know, if you want some scales of justice drama where everyone gets a fair amount of time then watch a school nativity play or something.

Walt did bad things, lost his family, died alone in the desert. Winner!

The only slivers of redemption for Walt are when he drops the pretence with Skylar and when he spares Jesse. But in general the idea of redemption is overly simplistic in what has been a deeply morally compromised universe from the start.

I think we're meant to believe that Walter Jr will get that money unless Gretchen and Elliott both die in a car crash or something.

This is pretty interesting as well:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/allenstjohn/2013/09/27/how-a-teenage-cancer-patient-changed-the-ending-of-breaking-bad/

Walt did bad things, lost his family, died alone in the desert. Winner!

He also died the kingpin, so yes, a winner of sorts.

ya the next day's news will be about how this crime kingpin massacred a nazi gang using his science genius, what more could walt want.

I'm not entirely sure about that.

It's a victory or a defeat depending on which motivations of Walt's are bubbling to the surface at any given time. Walt's admission that he basically did it for himself, for the buzz, foregrounds that side of things and he'd rather die in a meth lab surrounded by his enemies than die of cancer in a cabin in the the middle of nowhere.

The question of whether or not Walt considered it to have been worth the destruction of his family is the bit that we'll never know, but I'll hazard a guess at 'no'.

I actually enjoyed the way everything "worked" for Walt this episode - presumably that was an (un-spelled out) ironic counterpoint to pretty much every other single thing being completely screwed. But also it was kind of funny! This show is good at funny too.

It's a victory or a defeat depending on which motivations of Walt's are bubbling to the surface at any given time. Walt's admission that he basically did it for himself, for the buzz, foregrounds that side of things and he'd rather die in a meth lab surrounded by his enemies than die of cancer in a cabin in the the middle of nowhere.

It's a victory in the sense that Walt devised a plan on how to get the most out of the desperate situation he had gotten himself into, and the plan worked perfectly. Consider that during Walt's lowest point in "Granite State" he was slowly dying of cancer in a lone cabin, he had a bunch of money but couldn't do anything with it, his family hated him and refused the accept the money, he couldn't exact revenge on the folks who killed Hank against his wishes and stole his money, and on top of that Gretchen and Elliott were belittling his importance on national television.

Whereas by the end of "Felina" Walt had...

* Managed to but a bit of scare to Gretchen & Elliott, two people he had despised for a long time.
* Managed to show to Gretchen & Elliott he didn't need their pity money, that he had gotten rich on his own, even though him getting out of Gray Matter robbed him of the company's future fortunes. (I thought the scene where Walt tells the pair not to spend a dime of their own money for the trust was key, showing how badly Walt wanted to prove his financial self-sufficiency to them.)
* Managed to find a legal way to get his money to his family after all.
* Managed to get some sort of closure with Skyler (though not with Flynn, which was probably the biggest tragic moment in this episode).
* Managed to help Skyler negotiate a deal with the prosecutor.
* Managed to avenge Hank's death and kill the Nazis.
* Managed to save Jesse, whose slavery was essentially his fault.
* Managed to poison Lydia, who had threatened his family.
* Managed to die in a noble self-sacrifice instead of succumbing to cancer.
* Managed to die in a way that would make the cops think he was cooking for the Nazis, so Jesse wouldn't get the blame for that.

So yeah, I'd say it was a victory for Walt. Of course it wasn't the victory he had originally sought, he probably wouldn't have wanted to die estranged from his family and with Hank's death on his conscience. But I felt it was still too big a victory for Walt, everything shouldn't have gone that smoothly for him in the end.

"Managed to put a bit of scare to Gretchen & Elliott"

But I felt it was still too big a victory for Walt, everything shouldn't have gone that smoothly for him in the end.

where does this "should/shouldn't" come from?

Read my big post above, I tried to explain it there.

If you haven't worked out that Breaking Bad deliberately resists black-and-white moral judgements by now then I'm not sure what show you've been watching.

Well, since it was framed as a classical tragedy (the rise and fall of Walter White), I assumed the moral judgement would wait until the end. There's nothing inherently wrong with ending the story on a moral judgment, and with a show like this, where you essentially rooted for a deeply immoral character, it would've been a effective punch to the stomach. But instead we got this ambivalent/ambiguous ending, which felt more like the writers being afraid to take the tale to its logical end, and less like "we're deliberately resisting black-and-white moral judgements because we're so clever".

Yeah, just Walt getting the money to his family was an unbelievable win. If you read the interview with Gilligan, he talks about the writers doing that since that was Walt's goal since the premiere. Which is exactly the reason it shouldn't have happened imo.

And BB is massively moral! The sky went on fire after Walt let Jane die!

Also, the ending could be seen as being moralistic in a pat way: Once Walt prays, and admits his own faults, he is able to achieve what he wants.

Yeah, that was the first time I felt they were doing a bit of a Greek tragedy thing there.

(xpost)

How can anyone not consider this last ep, from the perspective of the fan, redemptive? Walt gets his revenge on those bumblin' Nazis (with genius DIY robot trunk gun!), that horrid single mom Lydia (what a bitch), his former partners (those bastards!), while making amends with Skyler (literally gives her a get out of jail card), his son (a ten million dollar trust), and his daughter (a lil' pat on the head). And then he essentially sacrifices himself to ensure Jesse gets away. He even gets a (relatively) warm, honorable death with an OTM Badfinger song.

Don't like Nussbaum much, but I agree this show could have gone much tougher. With, say, Walt freezing to death in that car a la Nicholson in The Shining and/or ""An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge." Not saying those would be better endings, but it could have been a little less tidy, a lot more messy, def. less silly. There barely left any room for emotional resonance with Jesse's escape (since he was given so little to do/say the last few eps).

By the way. Jesse Pinkman. Jesse P. P rhymes with J. JC. JC the carpenter, in heaven ...

Oh, and per Greek tragedy, praying to the Gods and making it right and getting what you want is the opposite of Greek tragedy.

of all the ridiculous things written about this show the claim the P rhymes with J has to be way up there

it's about seeming smarter than someone who's made something brilliant

board desc?

So the critical consensus seems to be: the finale should have been more depressing, and a dream?

Should have ended with Walt in hell and Satan wagging his finger at him.

There barely left any room for emotional resonance with Jesse's escape (since he was given so little to do/say the last few eps).

Like I said above, I think the biggest flaw of season 5B was Jesse's (who was once the co-lead of the show) story getting totally sidelined by Walt's story... In the previous seasons they'd gotten some interesting contrasts out of Walt's and Jesse's parallel character arcs, but during this season Jesse got hardly any characterization at all, most of the time he was just staring sadly into the eternity. The scene in the desert where he finally called on Walt's bullshit, and the final confrontation in the finale were cool, but two memorable scenes in 8 episodes is kinda little.

(xpost)

Again, strawmanning any criticism people dare to throw at the finale is not a good way to have a conversation...

Jesse had way more memorable scenes than that over this season. His ice-cream and attempted escape; his gf being murdered in front of him; numerous weird encounters with Todd. Last two episodes he ducked out a bit (apart from the awesome scenes I just mentioned), but there were plenty of opportunities for Jesse onscreen prior to that. And this was, at heart, Walt's story. Not Jesse's. He was meant to die at the end of the first season when the show started, after all.

So the critical consensus seems to be: the finale should have been more depressing, and a dream?

I don't think the dream solution would've been very good, too much of a cliché. (Though it can still work, like in Brazil or Mulholland Drive, but I don't think it would've fitted BB's aesthetic.) But more depressing? If that means Walt not getting a clean win, sure, I would've liked more depressing. It's not like BB was ever a particularly cheerful series.

nothing about this show was more emotionally resonant than the circuitous rises & falls of jesse afaic. this season particularly. I don't think he needed to be saying more or have some closer close-ups to better deliver his string of the story. watching him as just a recipient of all possible pain & suffering was intense. I can't think of anyone else on a tv show that things were as incessantly negative for.

basically I'm accusing you all of a not un-desert-neo-nazi-like callousness in the face of his brutal season

Thing is, Walt's retribution had already happened two episodes previously when Hank was killed and his family disowned him. He'd already lost everything and he was dying of cancer. The lifeline for Skylar and Flynn's future mysterious benefactor aren't going to soften their opinion of Walt. Short of the rest of his family dying in a Nazi attack things were about as bad as they could be.

I agree Jesse got stiffed in this episode a bit - giving the series' second most important character about as much screen time as Lydia and Todd was selling him short really.

tuomas - why not consider it a dream

I would've liked more depressing. It's not like BB was ever a particularly cheerful series.

maybe I'm just a sap but I think that a super dark ending would have been detrimental to the series as a whole. As everybody keeps saying, everything is irredeemably fucked for everyone anyway, I don't think piling despair on top of despair would have been the way to go.

His ice-cream and attempted escape; his gf being murdered in front of him; numerous weird encounters with Todd. Last two episodes he ducked out a bit (apart from the awesome scenes I just mentioned), but there were plenty of opportunities for Jesse onscreen prior to that.

Well yeah, but those were mostly just Jesse reacting to various awful things that were happening. Besides the escape attempt, he didn't have much agency during this season.

And this was, at heart, Walt's story. Not Jesse's.

If that's true, why did Jesse get so many character moments of his own during the previous seasons, many of which had little or nothing to do with Walt? (Like his drug therapy, his family story, his love life, his affection to kids, etc.) Maybe he started out as a disposable character, but by season 2 he was clearly the second lead of the show.

I thought it was a good and in most of the important ways a very fitting ending that leaves a lot of room for interpretation and rounds a lot of things off without trying to be an ultimate summing up of everything

if we're thinking of other ways it could have finished I am mostly glad there wasn't a need to have another, final and more complex climax rather than an ending and that there wasn't a shoehorning montage of all these other characters like a wire god that was a bad ending

mostly just Jesse reacting to various awful things that were happening

this is kind of jesse's story in toto