Irish politics discussion thread

http://cdn3.independent.ie/irish-news/article29292454.ece/ALTERNATES/h342/NWS_20130524_APO_011_27708446_I1.JPG

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-exits-recession-in-second-quarter-1.1533143

http://irishnewsreview.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/noonan.jpg

http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/pearse-doherty.png

http://s2.thejournal.ie/media/2011/03/PA-10270391-310x415.jpg

kill em boys

kill em

Today heard protestors described as "vermin". Depressing.

Leave kids money alone. Hike up tax on GTAV and consoles. We'll have 3bn in a week.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/use-of-martin-luther-king-quote-on-uvf-mural-perverse-1.1537304

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/22/140000-found-bath-property-tom-mcfeely

discuss

Today heard protestors described as "vermin". Depressing

i'd reserve fairly strong terms for some of the groups involved, in private discussion anyway

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/telling-women-to-be-careful-gets-men-off-the-hook-1.1536337

jfc what has happened the IT under the new guy, it is just woeful

i agree with that article, dmac

Outside of that, do you think it was a well or poorly written/argued piece?

Thought it was brutally poor stuff meself tbh, but ot alone in that of late in the IT

But maybe its a nonsense to separate that out from agreeing or not idk, idk

the tone struck me as the kind of tone you oft find over the pond in op/ed pieces, didn't think the writing moved the needle in either direction for me w/r/t 'quality of the writing' insofar that should matter at all for op/ed pieces, which i generally don't read

i dunno how far 'lad' culture is seeded in the UK though

Not very as far as IT/Guardian readership goes, id have thought? Though you've got yr rugger bugger class i spose.

well i mention lad culture as perhaps behind the most obvious / visible manifestation of this sort of thing, but i think it's something that is perhaps more permeated than you might think

She also found that in 70 per cent of the cases, the judge permitted the defence to question the alleged victim’s sexual history.

this was a really surprising statistic to me, over here most states have enacted 'rape shield' laws which prevent this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_shield_law

what do you think of this situation? http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/07/us/montana-legal-officials-step-in-on-rape-case-sentence.html?_r=0

allowing questioning of sexual history is imo wrong

that situation in that ny case is obv wrong

see no connection with either of the above and almost anything she has to say about 'men' or they way in which she chooses to say it in the article

well i think the article is fighting a pretty widespread phenomenon, at least in the us (and i imagine the uk as well?) of victim-blaming, or placing the onus for preventing rape and sexual harassment entirely on women

i linked to the montana article because there you find an example of this kind of thinking poisoning parroted by someone in the american judiciary system, which imo is somewhat abler than average at keeping repugnant characters out (although upon further research it looks like this guy was an elected state court judge, and of course, lol montana)

but i dunno, you may think that you're above such moralizing but imo you find this kind of stuff surfacing from people who you would have otherwise thought were perfectly reasonable, agreeable people.. it's worth ferreting out

i don't really see why it's such an objectionable message, either. if the takeaway had been "don't murder, murder is bad" you would be nodding and agreeing with it, yeah? "don't commit sexual assault" should be an equally uncontroversial statement, yeah?

i think the article is largely using victim-blaming as an excuse to blame all members of a particular gender for something carried out by not very members of that gender.

i don't think i'm 'above such moralizing' if that was the actual message, but when it's dressed as it is in the article i don't think it ought to be defended just because you (non-personal you) are broadly sympathetic to the ideals that could (very kindly and selectively imo) be associated with it.

again, whether or not you feel 'it' is an objectionable message depends on what you felt the message was upon reading, fair enough. but 'don't murder, murder is bad' is a reasonable statement, 'don't commit sexual assault' is a reasonable statement', 'take precautions against violence' is a reasonable statement.

and as a corollary to that, were a columnist to utilise crime figures to show that eg travellers were responsible for whatever % of theft in a town, an article printed directed at all travellers telling them the responsibilites they bore as a group for these crimes would get very short shrift from most people that nonetheless see nothing wrong with this article.

'take precautions against violence' is a reasonable statement.

i will obv recognise that there is an inherent difference in a public safety message or campaign that focuses on the likely targets of a crime, obviously. i think that to take a wide-reaching righteous anger against all of society against the necessity for these messages (or the uselessness of a campaign appealing to rapists) and choose to focus it in this manner is next to pointless, and probably counter-productive in a lot of ways.

telling people to be vigilant is pretty archaic police talk but it is not to say that it's a victim's fault if something happens to them. government bodies issue messages of vigilance all the time - we can be certain in society there are people out there who will commit crimes - and we know we can't rely on them to obey a "please don't commit crime" message.

i do agree that in the case of rape it is a message that could be used by those who would blame the victim. but from an irish police pov i'd say it's more that duty of care/nanny state message, same as "lock your doors this christmas, burglars will be everywhere".

but from an irish police pov

lol

apologies in advance dayo for a delay in any further replies i must GO TO COLLEGE

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0930/477352-marriages-cso/

Fewer couples got married in 2011 compared with the previous year, while the average age of brides and grooms continues to rise, according to figures released today by the Central Statistics Office.
In 2011 the average groom was 34.5 years old when he got married, while the average bride was 32.5.

Last time I was home my mother and aunts were talking about this. I went through my sixth year class and the numbers since married or with children are in the single digits. Obviously social change etc but still interesting. They found it seriously disconcerting.

The statistics released today show that civil weddings now account for 29% of all marriages.

yep, both interesting- both positive!

the second stat v interesting vs the % of us the census is doctored to show as catholic

went through my sixth year class and the numbers since married or with children are in the single digits.

going through my leaving cert class of about 50 there's a heap of them got married in the past two years, maybe you're just 'not that age yet'?

were a columnist to utilise crime figures to show that eg travellers were responsible for whatever % of theft in a town, an article printed directed at all travellers telling them the responsibilites they bore as a group for these crimes would get very short shrift from most people that nonetheless see nothing wrong with this article.

― gangover over sam over (darraghmac), Tuesday, 24 September 2013

in this example, travellers would be a little less than half the population, but 4/5s of the police force & 3/4s of the judiciary. they'd be 75% of councillors in local authorities and 85% of the dail. they'd occupy 70% of management, director or senior positions @ work. etc. etc. etc. and they'd be responsible for ~100% of the crime.

in response, there'd be a consistent emphasis on the behaviour of non-travellers.

well I'm 28 now so judging by that I have a few years, but the basis of comparison for my mother is of course her generation; she married at 24 and had me at 25, and everyone we know got married young too.

i believe you're taking an illustrative and trying to argue an specific there zvooks, but convincingly enough for that argument- if that was anything like the argument.

they'd be responsible for ~100% of the crime

figure? can only find cso figs going back to 2006 showing men almost 50% more likely to be the victim of a crime.

xp

you've got the few years ahead of you yet ime, by 33 that figure will have skyrocketed.

tho yeah the jump in one generation definitely seems to have been 7-4 years which is startling

in yr corollary, theft takes the place of sexual assault

I'd be interested if there was a big difference between us and the UK in terms of ages of first marriages, especially in the last fifty years.

in yr corollary, theft takes the place of sexual assault

― zvookster, 30 September 2013 13:18 (21 seconds ago

didnt get as far as the breakdowns of the specifics tbh

in my corollary, holding a group responsible for the behaviours of a few is taking the place of exactly that

I'd be interested if there was a big difference between us and the UK in terms of ages of first marriages, especially in the last fifty years.

― gyac, 30 September 2013 13:18 (1 minute ago)

was gonna say not that i was aware, then i remember that obv all the english families i am aware of are p much irish

yr in denial

no, they are. kilburn chippies, brickies, the like

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/financial-services/ex-bush-adviser-predicts-20-year-economic-slump-for-ireland-1.1546629

lol

wouldnt sit in a class to hear this tbh

might stay to jeer briefly and fling faeces or w/e tbf

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/third-of-voters-say-3-1bn-budget-target-should-be-retained-1.1546865

interesting snapshot to show, imo, that most people are considerably more realistic than the media slant on AUSTERITY, which is a very positive thing i think.

it's begun

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/peter-mathews-announces-resignation-from-fine-gael-1.1548970

Re the Irish times poll, this decent Irish politics blog points out the bizarre headline choice, given that 50% of those polled were against austerity and in favour of reducing the cuts.

Sir, – Only in the latter years of my work (giving day courses in relationships and sexuality to sixth class primary school children) did the subject of homosexuality arise.
Private sessions were scheduled into the day. In about 1980, in each of four schools, I was approached by one child. The questions of each of these four children were with regard to gay/lesbian parents. The questions would have been phrased much as follows:
1. I have two mammies. I haven’t told any of the other girls. I want a daddy who would be strong and look after us. Then I’d be the same as the others.
2. Why have I two daddies? From what you said about babies I must have a mum somewhere. I’m going to look for her when I’m older.
3. I have no friends in class because I don’t bring anyone home to play or to parties. That’s because I have two dads and no mammy. I can’t explain it.
4. The two of my dads can’t both be my dads because you said there is one sperm. Why have I two fathers and no mum?
Children do not want to be significantly different from their peers. Initially small children may be quite happy if the home is a happy one. But around adolescence questions begin and we have to give true answers. All of us, whether heterosexual, lesbian or gay, must think out the honest answers to such questions before giving a merely sentimental response to the referendum. – Yours, etc,
ANGELA MacNAMARA,
Lower Kilmacud Road,
Churchtown,
Dublin 14.

t/s angela mcnamara, lr kilmacud rd, churchtown vs mary stewart, ardeskin, donegal town, vs yerman maolshaochlainn mcmesslahschlaeanen

do they meet up, do they write to each other, are they merely the public correspondence unit of shadowier organisations like yknow the ones

telling, perhaps, that all of these children were so troubled about their alternative family arrangements after hearing the good ms. mac's thoughts presented (as is the usual case) as fact or without appropriate balance in the classroom setting.

one wonders if they'd been as traumatised by their situation prior to these 'courses'(on that note, who runs courses for 10 year olds? to what end? funded by whom?)

can't shake a vision of angela surrounded by abused/neglected children begging for aid and succour, her bating them out of the way cos they had the recommended number of mothers and fathers, charging down through a stream of waifs and urchins in the aisle of the classroom to bear down on the kids she sussed out in advance through her church contacts in the area

essentially, let's slit this cunt's throat for starters

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2013/02/02/from-1969-advice-on-behaviour-at-dances-and-modesty/

dancely maidens coming at the crossroads and all that

If a boy does invite a girl outside during a dance, why not suggest sitting out to have a mineral?

I would love for one of these children to write a riposte to that, but alas that can never happen seeing as these encounters took place somewhere in the mineral-addled recesses of Mrs MacNamara's mind.

srsly tho, the damage done by that wagon to the teeth of the nation over a period of decades, it's monstrous non

"Don't worry about your sinful living arrangements, take this bottle of Cadet and drink it every time you feel shame."

This fucking sucks

RTE/Irish Times, and the toadying platforms they provide to Iona, what...what *is* that?

Ppl itt may be better placed to inform whether or not RTE should have told them to shove their letter, i'd have thought 'homophobic' was not too strong a word for them as a concerted group that consistently make homophobic statements.