Let's talk about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, and how unbelievably fucked up this all is

Shout out to Dr. Morbius, schoolin' ILX on GEOGRAPHY!!! WHAT WHAT!!!

that woman is not representative of hayward she is just probably actually mentally ill

no that woman is the best evidence available for america not being a post-racial nation

That woman proves for the last time that California is in the South

The only way to say 'well there wasn't enough evidence' is to get pissed off all the other times there's not enough evidence and someone does get convicted - do we do this? Some of us do, but I don't do it enough to justify myself sitting back with 'ah well, there wasn't enough evidence'

― cardamon, Monday, July 15, 2013 8:45 AM (2 hours ago)

notoriously conservative groups like trial lawyers and the ACLU do this

this isn't about race, stop bringing race into this! this is about the rule of law in court" too - who said anything remotely like this btw?

no one here. lots and lots of people elsewhere.

I'm done with the fig leaf of confirmation bias, GZ said "fucking coons" on that tape and I cannot believe that little fact has just been swept under the rug.

― Iago Galdston, Monday, July 15, 2013 5:34 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I thought he said "fucking punks"?

― Treeship, Monday, July 15, 2013 5:38 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

I'm 90% sure he says punks.

^^^^
thank you

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/criminal-justice/is-there-racial-bias-in-stand-your-ground-laws/

I have not heard the tape but I would willing to bet against 'coons' just because it's such an antiquated term and Zimmerman is 28

i heard it growing up in east texas--always assumed it was a regional "deep south" kinda thing and not really something Z was likely to have encountered.

i can't hear the vowel sound "uh" at all, compared to "oo"....nevermind then! (i think coons is still in use down south and certainly his parents could've taught him that word)

I'm more bewildered by how it's become "fact" and "the record has shown" that TM ambushed GZ and suckerpunched him. I haven't followed every detail closely, but doesn't Rachel Jenteal's testimony contradict that? ie TM running away, then being too out of breath to run again when be approached by "someone", asking this person "why are you following me?" and then yelling "get off!".

xp I hear the pop of a p and the hard k at the end the more times I listen to it

also has become "fact" that GZ was getting beaten to a pulp, getting the living shit beaten out of him, his head was being slammed against the concrete repeatedly, he had no other option. So...just a few cuts from that? no concussion? refused a hospital visit? was aware enough to draw and fire his weapon? really?

that is the part that feels off to me. getting hit in the head with any significant force is incredibly disorienting and Zimmerman's account definitely suggested that there should be some brain damage

Roman also found that Stand Your Ground laws tend to track the existing racial disparities in homicide convictions across the U.S. — with one significant exception: Whites who kill blacks in Stand Your Ground states are far more likely to be found justified in their killings. In non-Stand Your Ground states, whites are 250 percent more likely to be found justified in killing a black person than a white person who kills another white person; in Stand Your Ground states, that number jumps to 354 percent.

thanks sterling. p damning (and damn disgusting), imo.

TNC's latest.

The fact that so many are willing to buy GZ's account without hesitation and 100%, when these are usually people that question and doubt so many things (Obama rigged the election and is a non-US citizen muslim!) tells me all I need to know about race being a factor in this. Actually, I guess the Hannitys of the world have no problem accepting things they are inclined to believe anyway, that fit into their worldview, with little to no evidence. So OF COURSE the young black male attacked GZ, OF COURSE he said "you're going to die tonight".

Did it ever occur to you that GZ is telling the truth and Obama is a fascist socialist Muslim? These things are not mutually exclusive! Has nothing to do with race, has everything to do with what is before your very eyes! The truth is colorblind!

(You shouldn't trust the truth to tell you whether the light was red or yellow, though. Trust me, you really shouldn't.)

"You're going to die tonight!" has never been said outside of a cheesy movie ffs.

Tell it to Axl Rose and the Cutting Crew.

You're joking, right, Treeship?

― Iago Galdston, Monday, July 15, 2013 8:38 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I've heard the claim that he said "fucking coons". I'm a guy who 100% believes in Zimmerman's guilt, and listened to the audio at least 10 times trying ot hear "coons", and I didn't hear it. I didn't hear "punks" either, but the fact that he said "coons" isn't as cut and dry as you think.

Nor do I think George would give prosecutors that much of an Easter egg. He's a paranoid dummy, but he isn't the mustache twirling bad guy from Bond films.

The fact that so many are willing to buy GZ's account without hesitation and 100%, when these are usually people that question and doubt so many things (Obama rigged the election and is a non-US citizen muslim!) tells me all I need to know about race being a factor in this. Actually, I guess the Hannitys of the world have no problem accepting things they are inclined to believe anyway, that fit into their worldview, with little to no evidence. So OF COURSE the young black male attacked GZ, OF COURSE he said "you're going to die tonight".

― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Monday, July 15, 2013 11:58 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This is otm. Even before video surfaced of George in cuffs with visible minor head injuries, some local guy here wrote an article on Examiner (which to be fair, ANYBODY can do) that got a lot of traction, claiming with 'shocking new detail' the 'true' events of that evening. That George was on his back being pummeled by a "giant" and was clearly acting in self-defense. This was before the new claims that George had his airway closed off by Trayvon and other BS came out.

Likewise, I got in a nasty row with a dude the other night who claimed the common logical fallacy that since prosecutors failed to convict Zimmerman, this means his account is 100% true. Zimmerman's story has been full of holes since the beginning, was not believed by the lead investigator at the scene, has contradicted itself (remember the "At no time did I pursue Trayvon" claim?), and is insulting nonsense. The only reason it wasn't disproven is cuz he killed the only other 'witness'. That people are quick to believe his story is obviously evidence that race is playing a role.

As far as people wanting to dismiss race in this, well....they're wearing blinders. No, I doubt Zimmerman went out with the express intent to kill a black individual that night, however, his views on the dangers of young black youths is well documented (the docs he handed out in weeks prior). And I think many of those who dismiss the race 'card' probably didn't listen to the recordings. Zimmerman's paranoia is very clearly outlined on his 911 call. He doesn't just report that Trayvon is "looking inside windows", he also suggests that "he's obviously on drugs or something", a claim he was in no position to make, esp from that distance. He focuses on him reaching inside his waistband, and then says "now he's looking at me - he's checking me out!".

and as we all know bond villains are notorious a) for their voluptuous facial hair and b) for incitements to racial holy war

go troll elsewhere

clover i'm really struggling to see what point you're making that you think other people itt don't get

best bond film: a) goldracist b) the spy who hated black teens c) moon-why-isn't-there-a-white-history-month

itt: people who aren't ian flemming fans

oh man. checkmate. (hangs head in shame)

I sort of get that the whole legal specifics conversation is also a way to process what happened--like I dunno, the different ways people process grief after a break-up or death of a loved one. Rationalizing, trying to understand. It may even be valid in large part, and I think the conversation about how courts cannot legislate social change is key, and our dream that they will mete out moral justice is misplaced and bound to end badly.

But I also think it's a mistake to be lawyering people whose anger is just. That while it may not be difficult to get people to say, I'm angry with the jury, or I'm angry because the acquittal was unjust, or similar things that aren't really factually applicable, what they're really angry about is that black bodies are not welcome in public spaces and will be acted against and that is a righteous reason to be furious and I am not going to try to blunt anyone's fury about that.

otm

clover i'm really struggling to see what point you're making that you think other people itt don't get

― BIG HOOS aka the denigrated boogeyman (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, July 15, 2013 4:02 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i am in the zing phase of the grief process.

no apparently you're still in the denial stage

also has become "fact" that GZ was getting beaten to a pulp, getting the living shit beaten out of him, his head was being slammed against the concrete repeatedly, he had no other option. So...just a few cuts from that? no concussion? refused a hospital visit? was aware enough to draw and fire his weapon? really?

http://images.christianpost.com/full/56944/george-zimmerman-broken-nose.jpg?w=262

He took a beating of some kind.

he looks a long way from dead

someone in IM with me just said "but why was he wearing a hoodie, it's not cold in Florida". I just...wtf

xpost yeah, the description of the beating George gave doesn't match the very real but also unimpressive photos. one of the medical examiners said his injuries were minor (though I presume they meant the head wounds).

Feel like many of the pro-Zimmerman faction focus on the 'wound' videos as evidence without asking themselves why George was creepily stalking a dude who had every right to be where he is, or identifying himself as a Neighborhood Watch captain.

Obviously Zimmerman's story was wildly exaggerated, but it wasn't just "a few cuts" either. If he'd just had a couple scrapes this would be a much more outrageous verdict imo.

this is why concealed carry laws are dangerous and not conducive to a peaceful society. gun rights people would tell you "see look! GZ's gun saved his life. unfortunate that his attacker had to lose his own life, but so be it. kill or be killed." and even if you believe that horseshit wouldn't you ever think hmm maybe if GZ didn't have the courage his gun gave him, he would've never approached TM and the only encounter that would've happened would be with the police? (not that the possibility of getting shot by them instead of GZ is non-existent but it'd have to be far less)

xp have you ever seen someone get their head pounded it to pavement? cause I have actually. they are knocked out almost immediately. just seems fishy that he was getting his head pounded in repeatedly on concrete and had no concussion, refused medical care.

think we all agree he had injuries, but that for whatever reason, Zimm's supporters kept using these pics as a 'gotcha' moment when it clearly wasn't one.

I think part of the disconnect from reality is that most of the Zimmerman fans are pretty contemptuous of reasonable doubt or lawyerly arguments in general, so this only makes sense for them as pure innocence.

that's fairly otm for people in these parts, at least. I got in an argument with an old HS friend who I recently ran into again, who, while he didn't explicitly support Zimmerman, implied that even if Zimmerman did initiate the squabble, he should have been allowed to defend himself with lethal force without consequence if he was indeed being 'beaten' by Trayvon.

This turn of conversation makes me want to tell SOMETIMES YOU JUST GET BEATEN UP, HOW IS THIS NEWS, IT'S BAD BUT IT'S NOT MURDER. NB I have never been beaten up though.

if black people cared about gun violence they'd stop making that violent hippity hop music DO YOU SEE

my only encounter with this shit was someone on facebook linking to an article about how Trayvon Martin may have done lean. Teenagers doing drugs!

Ive been beaten up, id have happily pulled a gun on them tbfh

nb i didnt chase them first and pick a fight with them

I haven't followed the details of Zimmerman's testimony. Did he admit to following Martin and telling him to stop?

he didn't testify iirc

*statements to police, that is