Let's talk about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, and how unbelievably fucked up this all is

because there was "nothing to disprove George's story". yeah generally when the star witness is dead on the sidewalk, he's not going t osay much about what happened. Pretty nice gig for George.

I disagree. The entire attitude of confrontation evidenced by the police phone call and the stalking is the starting of the fight.

It isn't like junior high school where the first punch is the start of the violence. Assault is a legal event that doesn't require contact, and it can be proved circumstantially. [IANAL, and I don't live in Florida]

― Zachary Taylor, Tuesday, June 25, 2013 2:02 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, but except it isn't like that. There isn't really enough evidence to prove that he actually "stalked" Martin in the legal sense, which is pretty specific, we just know he followed him at one point, and there isn't clear evidence about what happened in the moment immediately before the confrontation. I mean I can look at Zimmerman and say "considering the kind of guy he is, and the police phone call, and the way he was acting, there's a pretty good chance he is responsible for the fight." I mean I think there's a strong chance that it went down that way. But it's also possible that it went down a different way. I can come up with other scenarios -- any number of variations -- that are reasonably likely and fall short of that one. For example, it's not impossible that Martin overreacted to Zimmerman following him, for example, and just turned around and swung at Zimmerman. It's also possible that Zimmerman grabbed Martin first. But when you have two possibilities like that and you don't really have convincing evidence that the anti-defendant version is way more likely than the pro-defendant version, you're supposed to err on the side of the defendant.

Anyway, like I said, I lean toward thinking Zimmerman is at fault here, but I wouldn't feel comfortable convicting someone of a murder-related offense on the evidence that exists.

because there was "nothing to disprove George's story". yeah generally when the star witness is dead on the sidewalk, he's not going t osay much about what happened. Pretty nice gig for George.

― Neanderthal, Tuesday, June 25, 2013 12:31 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yup, that's exactly right, and that's how our justice system is supposed to work.

In the court of law, yes. As logic for telling a detective he can't make an arrest, even when he's filed an affidavit recommending it based on the inconsistencies in the shooter's story, no.

Right, I mean in a court of law. I agree that the arrest should have been made. But you can't convict someone to make up for that.

I assume the point the prosecution hammers home is that the entire confrontation is completely a result of Zimmerman's actions. The sequence of events does not start whenever someone punches someone on the sidewalk, it starts when Zimmerman starts following him, and continues when he for whatever reason gets out of his car. If either of those things hadn't happened, everybody just goes home.

technically it all started when incredibly racist patriarch of incredibly racist family failed to pull out almost 30 decades ago

Isn't it standard procedure when there is a murder to bring in the most likely suspect? The entire reason for police is 'To Serve And Protect' and it seems like letting a possible murderer go loose is basically spitting in the face of that creed. Is he good old boys with the police in town or something?

dude killed someone. he needs to go to jail. full stop.

I think the thing that gets me about a lot of self-defense cases (not this one, mind you) and the decisions to prosecute them is that I feel like the entire concept of probation could be used to clear up the competing desires to show that Killing People Is Wrong and allowing people to defend themselves, although even as I've written that I can see a bazillion different ways that introducing probation into the sentencing can generate situations that leave the victims of attacks even more defenseless than they originally were so um never mind, just some stream-of-consciousness blather

http://www.theonion.com/articles/george-zimmermans-attorney-opens-second-day-of-tri,32953/

when life is weirder than satire, satire has to work hard

One question I am having trouble finding an answer to - was there evidence on Martin's body of a fight? Did he have injuries other than the gunshot wound?

creepy-ass cracker

http://wfla.images.worldnow.com/images/22686694_BG1.jpg

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/the-collector_the-simpsons_3132.jpg

(sorry)

this officer debbie singleton has the exact same voice as law and order ada abbie carmichael

*doris singleton

“He jumped out of the bushes and he said ‘What the f..k is your problem, homie?’” Zimmerman said on the tape.

“And I got my cell phone out to call 911 this time, and I said ‘I don’t have a problem.’ And he goes, ‘No, now you have a problem,’ and he punched me in the nose.”

In court, jurors listened closely to the tape, while Zimmerman showed no emotion and Martin’s father closed his eyes from time to time.

Zimmerman told police he fell down to the ground after being punched repeatedly. “I tried to defend myself. He just started punching me in the face, and I started screaming for help. I couldn’t see. I couldn’t breathe.”

“He puts his hand on my nose and mouth, and he says ‘You are going to die tonight.’

He said “the suspect” was “mounted on top of me” and began to bang his head onto the ground.

“As he banged my head again, I just pulled out my firearm and shot him,” Zimmerman said.

He said Martin fell backward. “And he’s like ‘Alright, you got me, you got me.'”

“He puts his hand on my nose and mouth, and he says ‘You are going to die tonight.’

This transparently bullshit recollection of events should get Zimmerman thrown in prison for life.

He said Martin fell backward. “And he’s like ‘Alright, you got me, you got me.'”

― Ⓓⓡ. (Johnny Fever), Monday, July 1, 2013 4:38 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"aww, guess it wasn't in the cards for me. Good sparring, son."

seriously, for that explanation above the pass the smell test, at least three major details would have to be excised.

Also, I saw the pictures of the abrasions on the back of his head. Now, these weren't little booboos, but they also weren't humongous gashes either. When uncovered skin scrapes the sidewalk, it often gets cut and bleeds. Nothing about it screamed 'violent beating' to me.

Considering my one and only 'fight' as a youth consisted me of me banging a kid's head into the sidewalk three times, I guess I should be glad that said kid didn't own a gun and that it wasn't the Stand Your Ground days.

Theyre rly missing a trick not havin u up there eh

This transparently bullshit recollection of events should get Zimmerman thrown in prison for life.

― Ⓓⓡ. (Johnny Fever), Monday, July 1, 2013 4:40 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Not that I'm even REMOTELY sympathizing with George, but I do wonder how much his parents prejudices' played into his own going into that day. While it's true that much of the retaliatory anger they've displayed towards the Black community may have originated after George's arrest, given the shit George's father wrote in his book, that his own mother has said, and the shit that his brother has tweeted, I do not for one instance believe that they developed these beliefs overnight. Who knows the shit his father passed onto him. Other than not outright saying the "n-word", George's father is practically the father in that scene from American History X in terms of his attitudes towards Blacks.

Theyre rly missing a trick not havin u up there eh

― dj hollingsworth vs dj perry (darraghmac), Monday, July 1, 2013 4:48 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

?

story definitely has bullshittiness to it, but on the other hand his injuries line up with the story.

So IDK

His injuries line up with there having been a scuffle, which has been known since the earliest reports of the case came out. Those little side details like Trayvon being the aggressor, specifically making a verbal death threat, and acting very chill when he got shot don't ring true though.

But they don't have to for him to be acquitted. Doesn't change what I *believe* about him, regardless of whether the prosecution is able to prove it (which I suspect they won't).

we discussed this particular story upthread; general consensus was "this is some bullshit"

zero points for matching story to injuries; I know these guys threw some bad moves but I feel like presenting a story that doesn't contradict evidence on record is an achievable goal

speaking for myself (tho i guess i hope others agree) all i wanted out of this was a trial. i wanted all the evidence heard. i wanted zimmerman arrested and put on trial, rather than for the cops to just say "ok, sorry buddy, have a nice night". i didn't really think there would be enough evidence for a conviction, and was sort of surprised (but not really) that prosecutors charged him with 2nd degree murder and not something lesser. the only two people with a clear idea of what happened are now in a grave and in the dock. i expect zimmerman will be acquitted.

i hope that an equivocal kind of justice, the attempt at it, is enough for communities in florida.

According to Zimmerman's testimony, Trayvon said "you got me" after being shot in the chest. wtf is that? Sounds like something out of a movie or a videogame. next we'll find out Trayvon's final words were "bury me with my money."

"aw christ... you shot me. you shot me..."

actually goole that is exactly what my feeling was. I had a bad feeling about getting a conviction from the moment of the arrest, but at least it got to this stage when it looked like it wouldn't. There's really no injustice of the court system if he gets acquitted as that's how it's supposed to work, the only injustice was the length of time it took to arrest, but at this point it's happened and just gotta deal with it.

Sadly, it has brought out a lot of ugliness in town.

btw if someone is in mount position and banging your head into the sidewalk, where the heck do you keep your firearm to make it reachable under these circumstances?

Guess what I am saying is that it doesn't sound like Zimmerman shot Martin execution style. It does sound like he had a paranoid racist freak out and used deadly force unreasonably and it does sound like he's probably embellishing his story to make it sound reasonable. But I also know that stuff that sounds unlikely is occasionally true. So I don't think I could convict based on the evidence given the burden of proof.

speaking for myself (tho i guess i hope others agree) all i wanted out of this was a trial. i wanted all the evidence heard. i wanted zimmerman arrested and put on trial, rather than for the cops to just say "ok, sorry buddy, have a nice night". i didn't really think there would be enough evidence for a conviction, and was sort of surprised (but not really) that prosecutors charged him with 2nd degree murder and not something lesser. the only two people with a clear idea of what happened are now in a grave and in the dock. i expect zimmerman will be acquitted.

i hope that an equivocal kind of justice, the attempt at it, is enough for communities in florida.

― goole, Monday, 1 July 2013 22:00 (1 minute ago)

the relentless focus on the person of one violent, delusional fool serves to occlude the reform of systemic faults that ought to be the primary concern -- the idiotic & inhumane laws that facilitate vigilanteism and the gross failing of due process in investigating the killing originally

xxp also, if your head is being repeatedly smashed into the sidewalk, how do you even have the wherewithal to pull out a gun and fire it? did Zimmerman shake his head like Curly from the Three Stooges, go "nyuk nyuk", and blast Martin from point blank?

what do people normally say when they get shot? "ouch!" or what?

Guess what I am saying is that it doesn't sound like Zimmerman shot Martin execution style. It does sound like he had a paranoid racist freak out and used deadly force unreasonably and it does sound like he's probably embellishing his story to make it sound reasonable. But I also know that stuff that sounds unlikely is occasionally true. So I don't think I could convict based on the evidence given the burden of proof.

― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Monday, July 1, 2013 5:06 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think most of us believe this. can only speak for myself, but when I'm criticizing Zimmermann's story, I'm only stating what I think happened.

I wouldn't be surprised if he mistakenly thought Trayvon was armed (for at least some portion of the fray) given his paranoia towards black youths which was well-documented, and the numerous comments he made about Trayvon reaching into his waistband during his 911 call.

Having never been in the position of having to get a gun out of my pocket while on my back, I can't really speculate as to how easy it would be. Also if he completely made that part up, it would suggest that Zimmerman shot Martin after Martin was already off of him. Btw is there any ballistics evidence suggesting the firing angle and distance?

regardless of how the case turns out, the dialogue within the community is horribly fucked. there is animosity on all sides. as much as it sickens me so, there is a faction that is hardly a minority group that believes George is merely a victim of harassment and the police attempting to 'appease' the community. And as many people who have spoken critically about the need to repeal or strongly amend Stand Your Ground, it has to actually happen, and there aren't currently any strong indications that it will. There have been townhalls to discuss it around the state, but nothing to suggest that it's going to get a second look.

This isn't helped by the bill's author going out of his way to repeatedly suggest that the law is currently being used in a way he did not intend, attempting to blame law enforcement's interpretation rather than his own terrible bill. I'm just afraid that as soon as this trial ends, the conversation will be aborted.

ving never been in the position of having to get a gun out of my pocket while on my back, I can't really speculate as to how easy it would be. Also if he completely made that part up, it would suggest that Zimmerman shot Martin after Martin was already off of him. Btw is there any ballistics evidence suggesting the firing angle and distance?

― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Monday, July 1, 2013 5:15 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Merely getting a gun out of a holster while on your back isn't necessarily the difficult part. But if you were being beaten as handily as you said you were, where you couldn't breathe or move, it would be hard to imagine how he could have easily retrieved the gun and fired it. but then again I'm not a ballistics expert so who knows. It was definitely a very close range shot though.

ie, my thought is the 'beating' wasn't as severe as he lead on, but that he probably was indeed on his back, given where his abrasions were.

This isn't helped by the bill's author going out of his way to repeatedly suggest that the law is currently being used in a way he did not intend, attempting to blame law enforcement's interpretation rather than his own terrible bill. I'm just afraid that as soon as this trial ends, the conversation will be aborted.

pretty sure 15 months is far too much time elapsed for anything to be aborted in Florida

lol

I guess I also don't have a clear understanding of how the "reasonableness" of one's fear of imminent bodily harm or death factors into things. I mean if a guy in a fight gets on top of you and bangs your head in the ground, it's possible for their to be a grey area where you might think he was trying to hurt you pretty bad even though you weren't actually getting hurt that bad. Which doesn't get into whether Zimmerman started the fight in the first place, but we don't have much evidence on whether or not he did. Although the "jumped out of the bushes" part in particular just sounds ridiculous.

But all the more reason why these stand your ground laws are terrible

If reasonableness isn't factored in, you're basically allowing people to use lethal force based on their own definition of what constitutes a "threat" (which is precisely what's wrong with SYG). are you willing to do that? I strongly recommend reading the case history (should be able to find via a google search, a Tampa newspaper put it together) of all cases that fell under SYG. In some cases, the initial aggressor was the one who felt 'threatened' and killed or shot the other party, and were not charged or convicted as a result of this interpretation. In some cases, these claims were dismissed by the judge. There's been no consistency.

I'm not even necessarily of the opinion that Trayvon initiated contact first 'validates' the shooting. Despite being taller, he weighed significantly less, and I doubt he could have killed him with his bare hands. If Zimmermann was having his airway cut off and in some imminent danger, than perhaps it wouldn't matter if Trayvon was armed, but the evidence (to me) doesn't support that. All we've ever had is Zimmermann's word. And even that's changed - their original story was that he did not pursue Trayvon at any time, until the audio came out confirming that he did exactly that.

which is to say, yes, most of us are of the opinion that George did profile and pursue Trayvon, either due to his own paranoia or other motivations, and killed him without proper provocation. That doesn't mean we believe that there's enough evidence to prove this in court, which barring some late development, there appears not to be.

i haven't ever had to shoot a stranger to stop him from killing me with his bare hands, but I have been in weird scrapes once or twice. can't imagine ever talking like this after.

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/trayvon-martin-trial-quote-police-interview