DEM not gonna CON dis NATION: Rolling UK politics in the short-lived post-Murdoch era

Trying to gauge the nation is a fools' errand; I can screengrab people I was at school with saying awful things about immigrants and dole-scum and benefits scroungers all day long, and screengrab people I follow and who follow me on twitter being outraged that the Bedroom Tax is inhumane til I'm blue in the face. If I was to make any guess it would be that the nation is pretty split on this, but that most people probably aren't in full possession of the facts, because getting in facts is far harder than getting anecdotes.

Nothing in that Telegraph piece about the minimum wage being cut, as opposed to being capped or frozen.

Facts are complicated, therefore not a good story, and that's all British people want.

I can screengrab people I was at school with saying awful things about immigrants and dole-scum and benefits scroungers all day long, and screengrab people I follow and who follow me on twitter being outraged that the Bedroom Tax is inhumane til I'm blue in the face.

then we can argue whether nothing will change because people are inherently infected with some kind of original sin of apathy, or whether the best we ought to hope for is a slight recorrection in favour of the poorest under the auspices of the politico-economic system that created this situation in the first place, or whether it don't matter because London will be a sizeable lido within the next 100 years anyway

but most of all, let's be realistic, cos nothing succeeds like realism.

I'm afraid I agree with what is said here.

But last is the nagging worry that perhaps such vile conduct persists because it is not simply an NHS problem, as it was never purely a workhouse problem. That it is, instead, a human problem, not wholly eradicable by a restructuring here or a systems tweak there. Awful to contemplate, but perhaps this is what human beings will always do to those who are weak and vulnerable and in their power, unless actively constrained not to.

Perhaps we are all innately good but constrained to do horrible things to one another thru societal pressure and programming. Awful to contemplate, but perhaps my theory is as completably stupid and untestable as Jonathan Freedland's except without the apathetic "huh, human nature eh?" shite at the end.

I haven't seen very much proof to the contrary.

it's not provable is it? unless you can find some test subjects who have grown up without belonging to any kind of society whatsoever.

Calling anthropologists.

so "human nature" becomes a tool of those who want the world to not change, who want everybody to believe it cannot change because original sin is locked into our DNA and we are vicious vengeful apes incapable of cooperation or altruism. except if you look at other species of apes, they appear to be capable of cruelty and cooperation.

There was a thing in The Guardian (I think) recently about an anthropologist who'd done experimental economics tests with people from different cultures and determined that, actually, 'human nature' is cultural and relative and principles like generosity and selfishness vary massively across different societies.

apes also don't exist as unsocialised animals. the whole thing is a nullity. if you could prove to me tomorrow - you can't, but if you could - that human beings were hardwired to exploit others and take maximum possible advantage of every other human being they met, i would still say that our past does not dictate our future. we might be products of an unbreakable chain of cause and effect but we're compelled to think and behave as if we had free will and free will means the freedom to say "this isn't right and we must find ways to change it"

or to say "fuck it, people are bad, I'm pulling up the drawbridge". either way.

We're not compelled to think anything, unless by governments.

In reality this means the freedom to say "weak people? It's their own fault, they should get up off their arses if they want to change their lives, in the meantime let's stamp on them for fun, means more reward for us!" If you work long hours in shit jobs for next to no money then of course you're going to resent what you SEE as people getting everything for nothing, regardless of whether or not it's true.

apes huge fans of rent supplement

The Derby fire conviction will take this off the front pages of most of the tabloids anyways, and the father's position as a benefit claimant with loads of kids is hardly going to help if they do want to make a point, which they probably will.

the timing of that story and its unsympathetic protagonists is so unfortunate

yeah it's a real tragedy how he's not a tory huh

... not all bad then is he? I don't see how even the Daily Mail could use that guy and his singularly weird lifestyle as a justification for welfare reform.

Oh they could.

the mail would still be milking the protocols of the elders of zion if they thought there was mileage in it.

The Sun mentions the benefits thing pretty high up and gives a lot of prominence to the video of this guy on Jeremy Kyle. It's pretty safe to say they're not above making a political point with it.

They're not above anything but I don't see it having much traction with yer average Joe

http://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/319193925019643904/photo/1

I don't see how even the Daily Mail could use that guy and his singularly weird lifestyle as a justification for welfare reform.

― Step not on a loose unforgiving stone on a pyramid to paradise (Tom D.), Tuesday, April 2, 2013 4:46 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

:(

The saddest thing is that thousands of people, tens of hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, will lap this up and froth at the mouth like the Daily Mail want.

oh they barely needed the front page to do that - it was in the mail online comments within minutes of the piece going up (without such an inflammatory headline online)

that mail front page... seriously fuck this. that is so vulgar.

all of this is so depressing and maddening it's hard to know what to do

That's an otm everyone can agree on

http://www.psmag.com/magazines/pacific-standard-cover-story/joe-henrich-weird-ultimatum-game-shaking-up-psychology-economics-53135/

I don't see how even the Daily Mail could use that guy and his singularly weird lifestyle as a justification for welfare reform.

― Step not on a loose unforgiving stone on a pyramid to paradise (Tom D.), Tuesday, April 2, 2013 4:46 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^ who was that hopeless hapless naïf?

surely child benefit (hello welfare state) would be the thing that stops you from wanting to kill your kids?

http://www.themediablog.co.uk/the-media-blog/2013/04/the-sun-backpedals-on-state-funded-manslaughter.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-22017567

"I asked GCHQ to shorten a link and it magically turned into porn!"

lol ok

330,000 people signed a petition urging Mr Duncan Smith to try living on £53 a week.

He dismissed this as a "complete stunt"

Funnily enough I would use almost the same phrase to describe IDS

VG

http://blogs.channel4.com/snowblog/abnormal-behaviour-affect-welfare-policy-debate/20212

Jon Snow otm. This child killing madman being held up as an example of all that is broken about Britain is clearly an outlier by any measure and his actions and circumstances should form no part of any debate on welfare reform.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/67826_10151527200569162_284759461_n.jpg

Sometimes the optics speak for themselves...

As if the Daily Mirror could ever be trusted on anything. Why was Piers Morgan sacked, again?

A GOOD STORY

it's been confirmed on the BBC, Osborn playing the "unaware" card:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22035985

Really who fucking cares.

Clearly not you.

Agree btw (xp). Him jumping on the Daily Mail bandwagon over the Philpotts is seriously despicable but the Mirror don't have the balls to say so.

Quite. Also the general tendency to blow up minor mistakes and lambast people for not leading an entirely pure and noble life. You know, like Robert Maxwell did.

omg what even is the header on the daily mail online right now i can't

"This week the Mail was slated for making the perfectly reasonable point that arson killer Mick Philpott was a product of the benefits system. Today it is George Osborne's turn. Now tell us what YOU think. But, beware, the Left WILL try to hijack the result"

beware

Pretty sure the systematic dismantling of the welfare state will end up killing more children than Mick Philpott managed.