THE GAME OF THRONES/ASOIAF SPOILER THREAD (WARNING: SPOILERS)

Barristan the Load.

WHERE ARE MY MAMMOTHS

Don't think we'll be getting the Bloody Mummers.

Not seen #2 yet (do the Yanks get this stuff before us Britishers?) but I've gotta say that I really wasn't impressed with the first episode whatsoever.

Just feels like there's a few too many balls in the air right now, the different plots seemed to be getting about half as much air-time as they could do with. Just me feeling this way?

I hope they can rein it in a bit before too long(obvs. the number of characters is gonna drop pretty dramatically quite soon). Would be delighted for them to prove me wrong, but right now I'm concerned that this show is going to go a bit off the boil (until the end of the season anyway, which will surely be all kinds of batshit crazy)

Don't think we'll be getting the Bloody Mummers.
we are, but Vargo Hoat has a different name. And the hand is definitely going.

post about the "200 northmen slaughtered like sheep" at harrenhal got me thinking. i really don't know who these people are supposed to be. were these the non-bolton elements of a northern contingent, killed by the bolton troops before they head of in the direction of riverrun? they seem to be holding back the elements of the bolton betrayal for a big splashy reveal but it is making unsatisfying holes in the narrative

also: show speculation/spoiler

fairly obvious but if you hadn't already realized, the guy who says he's going to help theon escape is ramsay. in the preview of next week you see him releasing theon into the woods, to be hunted.

WHERE ARE MY MAMMOTHS

It was either them or the giant, my guess.

Just feels like there's a few too many balls in the air right now, the different plots seemed to be getting about half as much air-time as they could do with. Just me feeling this way?

My first instinct was to say no (I haven't liked either episode this season, btw), but trying to figure out why, it's probably because everything's moving really slowly, a lot of boring talk sandwiching the set pieces, which haven't been that impressive to begin with (Gwen Christie doesn't handle a sword that well, imo), i.e. too many plots diluting the storytelling.

Roberto, I may have read this instead of getting it from the episode itself, but I believ the Mountain killed a bunch of prisoners before high-tailing it out of Harrenhal.

I am *not* looking forward to the Theon/Ramsay stuff. Thought the Reek stuff was insipid to begin with, now it looks like we're getting torture porn too with it now, hoorah.

Also been wondering, if R + L = J, how are they going to swing that on the show? It's going to be pretty anticlimactic considering where R and L currently are.

Last bit: should people not point out things like thomp's post in the other thread? That's just going to validate things to the non-book readers and remove doubt that they're spoilers.

totally lost here, can't seem to figure out who R+L = J are.

Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon? Which, let's face it, pretty much has to be the case now unless GRRM is pulling an almighty swerve

ah ok thx. but then i don't understand leee's comment about how it'd be really anticlimactic considering where R and L are. i mean they're dead and all but that's never stopped a show.

I get what he means to the extent that by this point in the books, sooooo much has been made of Lyanna and Rhaegar's backstory (the heavy hints that them absconding was an elopement rather than a kidnap, the flashbacks to Ned Stark battling the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, 'Promise me Ned', that little story about the tourney in the year of the False Spring that Meera tells Bran and Jojen, and about a dozen other little odds and ends scatted through the text) that it's basically impossible to miss that whole subplot and see where it's leading.

But the series has made so little of any of it, Rhaegar and Lyanna haven't really been present whatsoever except for the first ep. when Robert Baratheon goes to visit Lyanna's tomb and that little bit of the story gets told.

Basically I totally see why they feel that they feel that stuff is not totally essential so far and could be cut, and of course they could always retcon it back during a later series somehow. But the "WHO IS JON SNOW?" storyline, which is essentially the whole thrust of his narrative and is clearly building to the massive reveal (this'll be Howland Reed's function, right?), just isn't really present in the tv show. If they reveal it with this little build it'll probably just raise a bit of a shrug from peeps who've not read the books. "Oh, so Jon and Dany are related?" or whatever.

Yeah Windsor 100% otm, better than I could've explained it, too.

R and L have been such non-entities on the show that bringing them in only via exposition would imo be bad storytelling. And since the show doesn't really do flashbacks outside of the House of the Undying and some green dreams, I don't see the actual characters getting onscreen, which makes me wonder if Jon's parentage matters on a) the show (apparently no) and b) the books.

maybe they think seeding something in early seasons for a reveal in later seasons is a waste of time, and they'll just go heavy on it closer to the time. but in the books it has got to be a Big Deal surely

thanks for the refresher. it's got me to think about stupid scenarios for the books, such as jon ending up with daenerys, bro&sis reunited, targaryen style (wait he's actually daenerys' nephew right?) and they'll rule it all with their dragons and giants&mammoths. only problem to that is we're supposed to believe jon's been killed at the wall no?

Flat out not having it that Jon Snow is dead at this point, largely due to the aforementioned foreshadowing regarding the importance of his parentage (btw, Dany/Jon/Tyrion turning out to be Targaryens each riding their own dragon is gonna happen fo sho).

Tbh while I luurrrve GRRM’s swerves and twists, I do think his ‘gratuitously killing off the main characters’ thing is massively overstated. At various points during the narrative we’ve been led to believe that Catelyn, Theon, Bran and Rickon have been killed only for them to pop back up, the Hound’s definitely still knocking about somewhere out there, the Mountain’s about to make his comeback as a zombie bodyguard for Cersei etc. etc. And for my money Jon Snow is definitely gonna see out this story in some form or another.

Really only Ned, Robb, Tywin and Joffrey qualify as massive name characters getting the chop, and those all work perfectly for the storylines and in hindsight don’t seem so WTF as they did at first. Four big characters in 5 books isn't outrageous, even if it is still more than say Potter or LOTR or whatever.

Part of the reason I’m excited for the next book is that I think we really ought to be over the hump of the narrative now, there are so many characters running around with enough build and backstory for us to care (and who have all managed to more or less avoid each other so far) that we ought to be able to see some pretty spectacular showdowns and deaths coming up. No reason why GRRM shouldn’t return to the pacing of Storm of Swords any time from now, basically.

Oh and Renly I spose. And Viserys. And Khal Drogo. And Lord Mormont. Alright, there is quite a few. But I'd argue that these guys aren't really essential.

yeah, i think most readers have gotten a bit tired of Martin's fakeout deaths. Hence the rather underwhelmed reaction to Jon Snow's supposed demise

yeah no way is jon dead (hence my supposed to believe). tyrion being a targaryen is a bit more farfetched no? once again my memory of the books isn't that great, i remember the character arcs m/l, the details less so, is there really a lot leading to believe tyrion is a targaryen? tbh i'd love to see him riding a dragon but um daenerys isn't v likely to be friendly to a lannister. sorry to be asking all of this when i guess i could google.

Oh yeah no doubt the whole Tyrion-is-a-Targ thing is just one among many wild fan theories flying about, it's just one of my personal favs. Tyrion as child of Mad King Aerys, hence the everlasting hatred zinged his way by Tywin, the apparently constant antagonism and tension between Tywin and Aerys etc. And there has been all that signposting shit about Tyrion designing his very own saddle so he can ride a horse, or maybe, just maybe..... a DRAGON?!

Having said that, all of that stuff can be (and has been) explained away perfectly simply without any of the conspiracy theory stuff. It's just an idea that I kinda like.

the tyrion thing is pretty loose and i don't know if i believe it. though the one interesting point that comes up in those discussions is that dany, tyrion, and jon (assuming the R+L thing here) are the three characters who 'killed' their mothers in childbirth which seems like a non-coincidence

you guys, the reason Jon isn't dead is because his mind jumped into his wolf; I really don't see Dany marrying an actual wolf

The reason Jon isn't dead is because the Red Lady's gonna work some voodoo magic on him because he is the PRINCE THAT WAS PROMISED

he's presumably not going to stay a wolf though

dany said she'd never marry again, so you know she can a direwolf to her ménagerie of dragons
but yeah red lady magic has to be on the way.

* she can add

he's presumably not going to stay a wolf though

It would be fun if he did!

we already have a supposed 3rd targ without needing tyrion tho right?

not too sure about that guy's credentials

Yeah, not long after I read the last book I read a decent analysis of the Dany scene in the Houses of the Undying when she has all those visions (I think it was this point, anyway? or maybe it was something that witchy Quaithe character said perhaps?) and there's a mention of the Mummer's Dragon being carried aloft over the crowds or something.

This Aegon kid ain't no Targ, but he'll make a decent puppet king for Varys till Danaerys gets back and starts fucking shit up

that is interesting in not wholly convincing. personally i thought he seemed like an obvious late write-in, without any real trademark foreshadowing, so i would guess grrm had a different plan for the 3rd head but it wasn't panning out or he tripped himself up. otherwise, why bother with the kid at all?

if not wholly convincing, obv

I assumed that the kid is just a part of Varys’s masterplan, and as such no great degree of foreshadowing is required for him. His is not the story really, it’s all about Varys. It could also act as a good catalyst to lurch Dany into action at long fucking last once Tyrion’s passed on the news to her.

maybe Varys is the third Targ

Maybe Rhaegar warged into Pretty Pig.

Lots of talk about Rhaegar this episode, HMMMM.

Lot of interesting deviations from the books, too, IIRC.

Someone frequents asoiafcirclejerk!

If they've mentioned Rhaegar this week, my hope is that they do the Knight of the Laughing Tree somehow, as that's one of my favourite parts of the series and it brings Lyanna back into the story.

personally i thought he seemed like an obvious late write-in, without any real trademark foreshadowing
IIRC, loads of people suspected Aegon wasn't dead, judging by questions put to Martin back in the day. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1189/ & http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1106/

You could also argue that his reappearance is foreshadowed in the House of the Undying visions, that story about the dragon inn sign in AFFC etc - but all as a Blackfyre.

well what do you know

I don't remember Varys having kidnapped the guy who gelded him in the books, did it happen?

I don't think so. But it was a great moment on the show, so

He didn't, but the speech was more or less word for word. It will also make what happens at the end of ADWD less of a shock to the audience in one sense.

I was thinking about the following comment by Matt DC in the other thread:

Pretty much half the dudes in this are idiot manchildren who are in their position purely as a result of stuff their dad did.

If I’m not mistaken, doesn’t a character’s season of birth foreshadow their rectitude? I couldn’t find anything on Wikipedia. Maybe I imagined the relationship?

Probably shouldn't search for rectitude on Wikipedia.

Seven Hells, the Arya/Gendry shippers are going to go nuts with this episode.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/45349_10151547865212943_1425544059_n.jpg

Any reason that's in the spoiler thread?

Because George is about to eat him.