salon vs. slate vs. atlantic

it seems p obvs its not plagiarism, especially since he personally brought up the problem of n korea losing some of his attribution links in the editing process before any of this broke

i mean when north korea is yr editor you have to expect some of this stuff

feel bad for all my freelance bloggo journalists out there, dont shoot anybody, please

idk i kind of think writers should get paid

this is a p unfortunate takeaway

It turns out that when Thayer decried "the state of journalism in 2013," he was unintentionally shining a light on issues much larger than not paying freelancers.

btw: http://whopays.tumblr.com/

idk i kind of think writers should get paid

― flopson, Sunday, March 10, 2013 1:18 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

for sure, the writings been on the wall for online journos since like 2001, idk

not rly into that tnc post i gotta say. also, like, imo u can't listen to media elite like him or yglesias on this topic. even if he includes anecdotes about personal hardships, like, they have to defend the system that made their careers in some way, if at least some cop-out like "hey, it's not perfect rly what is." it's like an attribution error or whatever, impossible to imagine they would be writing the same thing about the free work they had done for exposure if they were still poor and not getting paid mad ca$h

seems like the market cannot support much of any content creation anymore, we should just stop pretending that capitalism works and move to the renaissance artist/patron model, would any millionaires like to pay me money to live inside a wal-mart for a year and blog about it - i have a paypal account you can just send the money to

w0rd

i dont think tnc is as much 'defending' the system as just sort of laying down the grim truth about it, obv he's on the other side of the chasm, but if u are trying to support a family and make a living off of being an internet freelancer, gotta say that like exactly 8 people in america are doing that rite now and 100s of 1000s of kids graduate college each each with the unfortch mindset of doing just that, good luck usa

i mean hey its great work if u can get it rite? if u can get it

i only read thought catalog

yeah i guess he's not coming strong enough on the writers should be paid part. it's like, idk imagine tnc's conclusion applied any other field. established scientist: "i can't afford to feed my children" tnc: "u shld be paid a token amount, btw where i work we are hiring more scientists than ever before & nothing is perfect"

scientists r being squeezed too aren't they?

lots of journalists get paid, freelance journalists not so much, there are lots of jobs that pay better, as for what should be happening who tf knows, its hardly an indightment of capatalism

capitalism, man *flips capitalism the bird*

I mean lots of people have asked me to design stuff for them for free over the years I never said gdamn capitalism I jus usually said no, I imagine this happens w a lot of jobs, most people just don't have a big platform to complain abt it or the self regard to think their job is the foundation of civilization

ha dayo I know you said that a least somewhat in jest ive just been fighting w Chavez apologists and I'm so sick of 'capitalism, man'

remembering these lagoon posts for when the ilx revolution comes

bring it commies, revolution aint no hs debate club u dickholes

I never said gdamn capitalism I jus usually said no,

v counterrevolutionary of u lagoon

I ride for big government liberalism, socialists were never nice people

when the revolution comes the capitalists will design the memes that we mock them with

the democratization of meme design has destroyed graphic design, designers deserve to be paid

stop pretending that capitalism works and move to the renaissance artist/patron model

patrons expect a lot for their money. if you were a painter, they could wallow in the exclusive privilege of hanging your stuff on their walls and the rabble never getting to see it. as a writer the only things you can deliver to a patron are groveling praise and a thimbleful of prestige. writers never could wring much out of the patronage model.

I ride for big government liberalism, socialists were never nice people

― lag∞n, Sunday, March 10, 2013 2:04 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah but nice liberals in power just let other not nice people become powerful or ascribe a not nice outcome to some impersonal mechanism. same effect might as well cut to the chase imo

at least u can satisfyingly locate target of blame

~exactly~

the problem with tnc's post is he's a commentator, basically. he gets paid to read a whole bunch of things and then distill them down. and when he runs dry of important things he can blog other sorts of things, because he's also building a community in the comments section and he can jump in and moderate their discussions, etc. And when he writes for somewhere else, he's also basically extending what he does -- blogging and commentary. Thayer does reportage. it's a different gig. posts/articles individually take more time and research (closer to tnc's actual print articles as opposed to blogs). it's one thing to _blog_ for free on occasion to get exposure, or knock out opinion pieces, but it's another to actually _report_ for that purpose. especially since tnc is a name draw in a way that thayer and almost everyone else won't be and don't intend to be. it's pretty clear he's not intending to build some _personal_ brand, but instead his "brand" is that editors know him and give him paid work to do in-depth reporting in the places he covers.

so if you're doing what tnc does, his advice isn't bad. but that's not the only thing to do or be.

'the Atlantic has more full-time employees than ever' is a disingenuous line of reasoning cause the atlantic made one of the single most successful print-to-digital transitions and is thus one of the least representative old school media properties.

tip for nate Thayer: write more abt gender essentialism

'what do you mean there are no full-time jobs, cracked.com is hiring 5 new editors' xp

nate I want to point out gawker is hiring & nick Denton wants to give u money right now

it seems p obvs its not plagiarism, especially since he personally brought up the problem of n korea losing some of his attribution links in the editing process before any of this broke

― lag∞n, Sunday, March 10, 2013 5:08 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the CJR article that attempted to exonerate Thayer admitted that the number Thayer gave them for one of the disputed sources doesn't work -- "I was not able to contact Gene Schmiel — Thayer gave me a wrong number. I’ve asked, several times, for the correct one"-- which is all very Stephen Glass.

that's still kinda a side issue, like this blew up because 'is asking professionals to work for free' is an issue that hits close to home for a lot of people not cause people have strong opinions on thayer and his work

duns did reach gene schmiel and confirm that thayer talked to him. the issue was that schmiel didn't feel authorized to give new quotes and so said to thayer that he could quote what he had previously said. thayer did so, treating it as though schmiel had said that stuff again. duns thinks that this is a dirty lie and he could only have quoted the fact that schmiel had said this stuff prior. i'm not keen on thayer's approach, but duns' approach leaves out that thayer actually did the legwork of contacting schmiel and getting quotes, only to be given old ones.

regardless its a grey area and not thayer sits on a throne of lies/

remembering these lagoon posts for when the ilx revolution comes

― k3vin k., Sunday, March 10, 2013 6:00 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lagoon: 12th against the wall

i suppose he like THE MODS too

'the Atlantic has more full-time employees than ever' is a disingenuous line of reasoning cause the atlantic made one of the single most successful print-to-digital transitions and is thus one of the least representative old school media properties.

― iatee, Sunday, March 10, 2013 2:58 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i would say this is a entirely valid line of reasoning if you are defending the atlantic's policies...???

well the atlantic is a successful digital media property and the digital age has been what has been killing paid journalism. so the new jobs they have are still kinda replacing what would have been even more jobs at even more institutions in a previous era.

like it's not about the atlantic, it's about the state of the industry

I mean, they're also a successful digital property in that they churn out a bunch of blog posts designed to pull in reader eyes, but I'm not sure that content is anywhere near as valuable as print articles. Then again, the writers are probably paid even less than that marginal value.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/03/i-didnt-think-about-being-ripped-off-i-thought-about-whipping-ass/273937/#

tnc has some twisted logic here

What I am asking you to do is to avoid an appeal to a more noble past. I lived there. It wasn't noble. It was fucked up. Like right now is fucked up. When you ask me to show solidarity with writers who aren't being paid, you should also ask yourself what solidarity white magazine writers have shown over the years with struggling black writers who could not break in. You are appalled that Nate Thayer was once offered $125,000 to write for The Atlantic, and was then offered nothing. Fair enough. Are you equally appalled that there were virtually no black writers who could have gotten the same deal?

like you can appeal to certain parts of the past - such as 'there was a middle class in america' - without believing that it was better in every single way for every single human being. nobody's mourning white privilege, they're mourning the privilege of getting paid for a certain form of labor, something that affects and will continue to affect, ya know, black bloggers too.

i really doubt opportunities for black writers have blossomed that freaking much in the last ten years. the real heyday for a more integrated world of journalism (to the extent there was ever even the beginnings of one) was iirc the 70s. i'm really taken aback by how offbase tnc is here.

http://www.nabj.org/news/88558/

yeah I mean his examples of today's progress is like..these 3 people have jobs now

i don't think he's saying that opportunities for black writers have exactly blossomed in the last ten years, he's just saying that those opportunities didnt exist back then and if they dont exist now because of the decline of the middle class, well thats not that different than the way it was back then either

opportunities did exist back then, maybe not the opportunity to be the token dude at the atlantic

but in terms of getting paid enough money to pay your rent for writing, more opportunities, across the board

And now everyone got to fight. Some of the writers I most admire -- Jamelle Bouie, Adam Serwer, Gene Demby -- advanced themselves, in part, by writing for free in the form of blogging. These people are warriors. And fifteen years ago -- under the system that is so lustily praised -- they would not have existed.

like he is implying that the current system is more meritocratic and we shouldn't forget that, but a. I mean how much is it really and b. again it doesn't really matter if there are 3 jobs total we're talking about