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Am I the only person who got scared when they saw three exclamation points in a Momus post?

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:17 (twenty-one years ago)

could somebody please do the dancing Spidey, I really think it's time for dancing Spidey

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Number of ILX posters who are "people in their 20s in influential metropolitan areas" > Number of ILX posters who are Momus

So why are the number defending Vice, especially as it "defines the sensibility... of people in their 20s," so small here?

― martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, both Ned and I asked a not-directly-related-to-Vice question earlier to which we never got an answer.

I'm still wondering why "you can't say that" is not an option for a songwriter.

― martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:21 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd do anything for love... but I won't do that.

― sexyDancer, Friday, 18 June 2004 19:23 (twenty-one years ago)

J0hn: Well, while you're fighting Darnielle's last stand on the moral issue of the racial language, you might find that they were using it situationally -- to separate urban kids (or people who want to pass for urban kids) who've negotiated racial pluralism 'at street level' all their lives from the suburban kids who've been taught about racial issues from politically-correct librarians and schoolteachers.

'You can't say that' is not an option for a songwriter because... IT JUST IS, OKAY? Ask J0hn.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:23 (twenty-one years ago)

You know, my role model in life is a man in a mini skirt and mascara, singing

'Time, he flexes like a whore, falls wanking to the floor...'

Don't tell me 'You can't say that'!

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I like how you already put 'at street level' in quotation marks and admitted that this includes (people who want to pass for urban kids). Did our job for us.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:25 (twenty-one years ago)

dude, NO ONE CARES ABOUT VICE EXCEPT FOR LIKE 300 PEOPLE

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I wondered how this thread topic could have generated 400+ posts in such a short time. Then I saw it was one of the fascinating Vice Magazine threads. This evergreen topic leads to so much interesting discussion. Or oration. Or masturbation.

Anyway, it's interesting to see people arguing over whether an obscure print mag defines a generation. Be sure that no currently living generation is defined by any magazine, or anything in print, for that matter.

― Skottie, Friday, 18 June 2004 19:28 (twenty-one years ago)

http://manifestonews.org/QIN/publications/1230.html

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Did our job for us.

There's no shame in wanting to pass for an urban kid. I'm not a rockist, I'm a Glam Rockist. It's okay if it's all a drag act. Artifice is allowed.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Vice is one of the magazines that defines the sensibility, for better or worse, of people in their 20s in influential metropolitan areas.

I guarantee the amount of people in their 20's in NYC who know that Vice exists is maybe 10%.

― bnw (bnw), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)

momus taught me about a russian cartoon monkey in the new vice mag.

Number of ILX posters who are "people in their 20s in influential metropolitan areas" > Number of ILX posters who are Momus
So why are the number defending Vice, especially as it "defines the sensibility... of people in their 20s," so small here?

its the same 6 or 7 people that are so upset about vice. im sure if you polled ALL ILXORS most wouldnt care. like me.

― chaki_burger (chaki), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)

50,000?
Wow, that's the same number as Fall fans!

― sexyDancer, Friday, 18 June 2004 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

There's no shame in wanting to pass for an urban kid.

Wanting to pass for someone who has "negotiated racial pluralism 'at street level' all their lives" is pretty shameful in this context.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Really? You have to be 4 real, and pay your dues?

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:33 (twenty-one years ago)

http://eire.census.gov/popest/data/national/tables/NC-EST2003-as.php

there were 39,895,640 Americans 20-30 on 1 July 2003.

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

If I'm going to give your sub-Lenny Bruce shit any creedence it might help.

(x-post)

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:35 (twenty-one years ago)

wow, 101 new answers in the time it took me to get the bus home!!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:35 (twenty-one years ago)

argh. credence. damn John Forgety.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:35 (twenty-one years ago)

so assuming only 20 to 30 year olds read vice:

then ~0.125% of 20 to 30 year olds could be vice readers. like a little more than 1 in a thousand

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought you typed "John Forgery" there

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I never told anybody "You can't say that."

J0hn addressed the original question by saying that nobody's saying "can't."

i.e. it isn't "can't" say, it's "oughtn't," and it's a whole different deal! ... So don't argue that there's anybody saying "you can't say that." There is no such person, no such censor.

I agree with J0hn, and in the context I wanted to know why it appears that you defend a songwriter's duty to not be bound by "You oughtn't say that" in the same breath as you defend his or her duty to not see "You can't say that" as an option.

It's times like these when, in spite of your unusual ability to stay unruffled and relatively civil during disagreements, it becomes clear that you're not particularly accepting of other's views nor willing to explain those views of yours they may find puzzling.

― martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:36 (twenty-one years ago)

39,895,640 Americans 20-30 on 1 July 2003 and the percentage of them who even know there is a Vice Magazine is statistically insignificant. The number influenced by it, < 0

― Skottie, Friday, 18 June 2004 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

If you think the place to look for the zeitgeist is government statistics, well...

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

My last post was a big xpost and is re: the whole "You can't say that" comment if it's not obvious from the context clues.

― martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

0.017% of the overall american population reads Vice

less than 2 in 10,000.

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:38 (twenty-one years ago)

see what Momus has done? He's reduced Jon Williams to using the scientific method! WHATZ GOING ON?

― sexyDancer, Friday, 18 June 2004 19:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus, MAKEOUTCLUB.COM HAS WAY MORE MEMBERS THAN VICE HAS READERS

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:38 (twenty-one years ago)

http://shs.westport.k12.ct.us/mjvl/science.gif

GET IN MY SPACE SHUTTLE BITCHES

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:39 (twenty-one years ago)

In the end it's an issue of personal faith with me that anything is sayable. J0hn is keeping rather quiet, but from what I've seen of his work, 'saying the unsayable' plays its part too. Oughtn't and can't are the same voice as far as I'm concerned.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:40 (twenty-one years ago)

no one i know who is cool likes vice

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:41 (twenty-one years ago)

for CeCe
http://www.newmetal.hpg.ig.com.br/FIGURAS/fred.jpg

― chaki_burger (chaki), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, Vice is kinda "3 years ago"

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus, I grew up in southern California. There is nothing Vice can tell me, and certainly nothing you can tell me, about racial pluralism as it occurs in vivo.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I like Fred Durst because, like Pepsi before him, he reflects the new generation.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I pretty certain that Aja stopped posting to ILX because she's so busy on the writing staff of Vice Mag, she doesn't have time anymore for all her fans here. Instead, she's reaching out to the vast readership of Vice Mag, all of whom crave (and are influenced by) her message. It's a great gig and an honor for a recent high school graduate to have landed a paid staff position on such a respected journal. But that's our Aja. If anybody could do it, it was bound to be her.

― Skottie, Friday, 18 June 2004 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)

http://gorehole.org/mpls/faction/wolf_eyes.gif

― WOLF EYES (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:45 (twenty-one years ago)

http://sindivision.net/stuff/hxc.gif

― MOSH (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Out of curiosity's sake, have we ever firmly established whether or not Momus has ever read an issue of Answer Me! ?

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:47 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.carbonrecords.com/photos/finkbeiner_sawzall_olneyville_friendenemy_08_08_02/pictures/oss1.gif

― I LUV TEH OSS (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Highlights for Children
Publisher: Highlights for Children, Inc.
Established: June 1946
Frequency: Monthly
Circulation: 2.5 million

much more interesting than vice too

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:48 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost Daddino - we have firmly established that Momus has never read ILX. Or a freakin' history book.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Now which one of those dancing kids is Aja? She was so clever.

― Skottie, Friday, 18 June 2004 19:49 (twenty-one years ago)

ranger rick is 500,000+

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Highlights? We've gone from "Do's And Don'ts" to "Goofus And Gallant"

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:50 (twenty-one years ago)

teen people: 577,817
ym 1.5 million
seventeen 2.5 million

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I like how some can and do make an argument explaining away Vice's shock tactics as some sort of sociological sea change, and yet what no one has tried to refute is the unassailable fact that it's fucking boring and awful

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Update: most people on ILX have now shifted their views on Vice. Many read it and find it amusing.

Haha, they have? I am so behind the times, I still find it a juvenile piece of filth written by people who are scared so shitless by people that aren't like them that they have to put a magazine out mocking everything that's not them. I suppose I am not reading the subtext properly.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:51 (twenty-one years ago)

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