The Sopranos Vs. The Wire

yeah there's something that's bothering me about the analogy. i know simon stays on message in interviews about his fatalism, but what happens on the show is people shaping institutions and being shaped by them. it's not like the institutions are floating above everyone, inscrutably controlling destinies.

some characters seem to fit the greek tragic model* better than others. omar more than jimmy, for example. or both fit them and not. like, bubbles killing sherrod is all tragic reversal, but overall bubbs's storyline bears witness to the fact that the choices he makes matter.

*i don't really know what this model even is lol

xpost

ya, y i said it didn't hold up if you looked too hard. i guess the argument could be that personal choices matter for the person, but at the end of the day nothing anyone does can affect any large scale change because you can't beat the department, city hall, or the game. schools will never get better, leaving the kids stuck in a still desperate situation, even if the occasional namond gets a helping hand out. drug laws can't be changed, and the department is stuck trying to give good PR to the hall rather than encouraging good police work.

otoh, avon/stringer doom was very much due to their characters.

schools will never get better, leaving the kids stuck in a still desperate situation, even if the occasional namond gets a helping hand out. drug laws can't be changed, and the department is stuck trying to give good PR to the hall rather than encouraging good police work.

this is why i think the show's fatalism is a problem tbh. i don't mean this in a pollyannaish way, just that things haven't always been this way, and won't always be either.

i think the fatalism aspects aren't so much about 'och well, this is all it will ever be, don't it suck'. the desperate fatalism, i think, is meant to shock and infuriate us into paying more attention to just what's going on. it also ups the drama within the show.

i guess i feel like the show shows you the unintended inertia of institutions but i don't think it actually says schools will never get better or drug laws can't be changed. (i seriously don't think it gets into the latter at all, does it?) this is maybe a pollyannish read of the show, though.

it's true it's not good at showing you that things won't always be this way. and yeah, it seems like simon's project is to use fatalism as a corrective.

drug laws can't be changed. (i seriously don't think it gets into the latter at all, does it?)

It's a pretty big part of season 3 with hamsterdam. royce genuinely looks into legalizing the zones until the's all 'oh wtf was i thinking' - basically the city hall and the game can't be reformed etc...

lol dunno jack about greek tragedy but am trying to remember what fritz lang says about it in 'le mepris'...

re: hamsterdam, yeah okay. i just feel like there are complex reasons in the show for why change doesn't occur, when it doesn't. some of it seems beyond control and some doesn't. like why carcetti fails as mayor--some of that is about the intractability of politics and some of it is about carcetti himself. like how he can't bring himself to ask the governor for money even though the city desperately needs it.

this is insanity

that is otm, yes

xxpost i do think the greek tragedy element flies out the window a bit once city hall comes in and the upper authorities are fleshed out and humanized, though still unable to do much of anything.

tho the greek gods played out their wars using puny human pawns, so maybe understanding the powers that be doesn't make a difference?

"this is why i think the show's fatalism is a problem tbh. i don't mean this in a pollyannaish way, just that things haven't always been this way, and won't always be either."

Can't agree on the 'fatalism'. By showing the processes of what goes wrong I see an intention to be a part of the changing of things.

that would be quite a vain and historically unfounded intention! im not sure if the show's creators would subscribe to it anyway.

it's not a bad thing for drama to tell us something about 'real social conditions', it's just that that can't be the main pitch.

Well, I definitely get a sense of 'these are the problems, maybe one of you viewers will have a solution or two to them'. That's a reason as to why comparing Sopranos to Wire in the first place doesn't make any sense, really.

otoh the focus on reality is unfortunate, there is a big element of chance to this show as well (beyond anyone's control so it undermines what I'm saying a bit).

ok, after the initial couple episodes, i have to say the sopranos season 3 turns into about as great a television i've ever seen. <3 pine barrens and <3 the singing fish toy thing.

I am so w/s1ocki on the Sopranos love but haven't started in on the Wire yet even so I will be very surprised if these lopsided poll results are even halfway justified, the Sopranos is so so great on so many levels.

Yeah, the margin for the Wire victory is way too fucking large. It's a definitely a much closer battle.

i'm w slocki and i think history will be on his side as well

They're both amazing, but the Sopranos has more going on in terms of rewatching certain episodes. Tons of wink winks and inside jokes.

The Wire is full of "wink winks and inside jokes"!!!

i don't think it's worth debating with "OldHamSweat"

there's a lot of things that I could say right now that I am not gonna say

it's not the winks that make it worth rewatching, it's the writing & acting. once you know how things play out so many scenes are so much more layered, characters' actions and motivations so much deeper. such a rewarding re-screen.

Good Wire game - count the Peckinpah refs.

once you know how things play out so many scenes are so much more layered, characters' actions and motivations so much deeper.

^^^totally co-sign this (which I was kinda ref'ing w/the quote above in a fairly oblique way I guess - that line gets repeated in a number of different scenes by different people at different times and its use and repetition reveals a lot of layers)

part of it is that characters in the Sopranos - esp the major ones - are rarely communicating openly and honestly (is Tony ever honest with anyone about anything, really?) and the dialogue is more often than not a really amazing excercise in misdirection, irony, flattery, manipulation, etc.

it begins

what does

"it"

slashfic

omar and tony team up to fight crime?!

me watching the Wire is what.

not totally blown away by the first three episodes but I'll assume it gets better

nope, those are the best three

I knew it

it begins

what does

me reading the thread is what.

"is"

is begins

hot dogs

hot dogs begin

"slashfic"

slashfic

http://i43.tinypic.com/2l9nrih.jpg

Oh man, got the complete series today. Am in high heaven right now.

It begins. . .

Way way late on this, but to me The Sopranos is about a lot of things, but its main concerns were: parenting and the raising of children, mainly in the ways Tony was affected/shaped most obviously by his mother but also importantly by his father and the way he and Carmela shaped their own children, and to what degree anyone can be expected to overcome their parentage. This of course extends to many threads throughout the series... Uncle Junior and even Paulie as father figures, Tony attempting to "re-mother" himself with Melfi, Ralph's influence on Jackie Jr, the relationship between Tony and Christopher, Christopher's father... I think that's the richest and deepest vein in terms of the show's thematic concerns. And that, of course, ties into another major concern of the show, which is whether/how much people can change, and at what point(s) they can reasonably be expected to do so. Other things I think the show is about/dealt with extensively: depression, therapy, dishonorable people attempting to be honorable (this if what the mafia is, essentially), corruption, heritage/cultural pride (obviously Italian here, but I think it might apply beyond that). And it was also about the love between Tony and Carmela, especially in the later years. People who complain about the show spinning its wheels or doing nowhere are only watching on a surface level, and yeah, I realize how pretentious/arrogant that might sound, but I think every episode had a purpose or theme or joke or something it was conveying... To write any of them off, I don't get.

Don't tell me The Wire is "clearly" the superior or richer show, goddamnit.

sing it, sister.

i think there's a little fronting in about 70% of the OMG WIRE IS THE BEST SHOW EVAR opinions I read on borads and hear IRL