The Locking of the Avril Thread

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i thought this was kind of funny, but then i own david spade movies so i shouldn't judge

http://www.viceland.com/issues/v11n4/htdocs/who.php

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus. Regarding "tact is situational": yes! Using the word "nigger" in America, when you're a white guy who will never, ever understand the historical burden of the word here, this is an example of being situationally tactless. I suppose you'll want to argue that a whole country can't of itself be a "situation." History says different.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:57 (twenty-one years ago)

He did you a service, Stence, headphones induce deafness.
-- Momus (nic...), June 18th, 2004.

Fuck you, Mr. Situational Tact, my headphones cost $100 and were part of the only way I could make money at the time. Stealing from the unemployed = huge fucking dud.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 18:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, J0hn, Dos and Don'ts is, as Dan noted upthread, comedy, and once you start trying to draw lines of taste, it's 'whole history of comedy to thread'. It's interesting that that page still got a bigoted reader calling the Vice staff 'jews'. It sort of bears out what Gavin was saying: we speak harshly because we are in the thick of things. The real prejudices, though, are aesthetic. The important thing is whether you're a Do or a Don't, not whether you're a Jew or a Canadian.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Nick, you could have responded to Stence's point about the headphones differently. You didn't, and he's more pissed. Why do this?

Why, in fact, do you not live up to your own wish, and de-escalate rather than escalate?

Why are the rules different for you?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Do: say whatever you want, no matter how stupid
Don't: steal headphones

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:01 (twenty-one years ago)

..and I know you're polite, Momus: it's the quality in you I envy most, your ability to retain your composure when under attack! That you clearly value this quality in yourself makes it all the more disheartening that you'd continue to defend the racist assholes at Vice. And I don't need to copy and paste to support that charge. You know very well what they are.

xpost: Yes, white folks can say that "the important this is whether you're a do or a don't," because there's no-one to tell them "don't." But the people that we (and you're implied here whether you like it or not) have assaulted, enslaved, marginalized, and murdered for most of Western civ's history might argue, convincingly I'd like to add, that to them it seems rather more important whether you're black or white than how you fall on this or that philosophical parlor-distinction.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:02 (twenty-one years ago)

It makes me think of this black friend of mine back in school who was talking about Quentin Tarantino using the word "nigger" in his films, and how he said "I want to take away the negative power of the word and reclaim it". His attitude was "don't do me any favors, because you don't know what the word really means." He felt QT was taking away the negative meaning of it less for himself and more for sheltered white film geeks.

Sort of like the fans of the Washington Redskins to whom the team name means nothing, and why should they care that it makes a lot of Native Americans feel like shit to hear it on ESPN all the time?

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:04 (twenty-one years ago)

I love describing threads like this to non-ILX indie fans.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:05 (twenty-one years ago)

shh Gear you'll get Momus started on how when Tarantino does it it's bad because violence, that's an ok "don't" but racist language, that's def. a "do"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sure that some of you will walk away from this latest spat in 'the Vice Wars' shaking your heads and saying 'Momus just doesn't get it'. But the fact is, Vice is one of the magazines that defines the sensibility, for better or worse, of people in their 20s in influential metropolitan areas. You are walking away, head shaking, from a generation, and an attitude, that will only grow and get more recognisable as the decade wears on. (They may even buy Mountain Goats records!) It's sad if you think these people are racists or fascists or just very rude. If you read the magazine, and understand the situational politics of it, you'll realise that that is not the case.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:11 (twenty-one years ago)

SOMETHING IS HAPPENING HERE AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS, DO YOU, MR JONES!!!

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Fight this generation.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus, that is bullshit! Vice doesn't define a whole generation at all. That they have convinced you that they do is really just too too. Next you'll tell us that Larry Clark's Kids was really representative of kids that age in '95. I assure you of this: Vice's "sensibility" does not speak to the black, Latino, Asian, or otherwise non-white sensibility of anybody, and the phantom generation you invoke would of necessity have to be a multi-racial one.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:16 (twenty-one years ago)

..and if you read the magazine, and are honest with yourself, you'll ask: "Who are these white guys to tell me it's cool if they use the word 'chink'? Fuck these assholes!"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Am I the only person who got scared when they saw three exclamation points in a Momus post?

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:17 (twenty-one years ago)

could somebody please do the dancing Spidey, I really think it's time for dancing Spidey

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Number of ILX posters who are "people in their 20s in influential metropolitan areas" > Number of ILX posters who are Momus

So why are the number defending Vice, especially as it "defines the sensibility... of people in their 20s," so small here?

― martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, both Ned and I asked a not-directly-related-to-Vice question earlier to which we never got an answer.

I'm still wondering why "you can't say that" is not an option for a songwriter.

― martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:21 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd do anything for love... but I won't do that.

― sexyDancer, Friday, 18 June 2004 19:23 (twenty-one years ago)

J0hn: Well, while you're fighting Darnielle's last stand on the moral issue of the racial language, you might find that they were using it situationally -- to separate urban kids (or people who want to pass for urban kids) who've negotiated racial pluralism 'at street level' all their lives from the suburban kids who've been taught about racial issues from politically-correct librarians and schoolteachers.

'You can't say that' is not an option for a songwriter because... IT JUST IS, OKAY? Ask J0hn.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:23 (twenty-one years ago)

You know, my role model in life is a man in a mini skirt and mascara, singing

'Time, he flexes like a whore, falls wanking to the floor...'

Don't tell me 'You can't say that'!

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I like how you already put 'at street level' in quotation marks and admitted that this includes (people who want to pass for urban kids). Did our job for us.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:25 (twenty-one years ago)

dude, NO ONE CARES ABOUT VICE EXCEPT FOR LIKE 300 PEOPLE

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:27 (twenty-one years ago)

I wondered how this thread topic could have generated 400+ posts in such a short time. Then I saw it was one of the fascinating Vice Magazine threads. This evergreen topic leads to so much interesting discussion. Or oration. Or masturbation.

Anyway, it's interesting to see people arguing over whether an obscure print mag defines a generation. Be sure that no currently living generation is defined by any magazine, or anything in print, for that matter.

― Skottie, Friday, 18 June 2004 19:28 (twenty-one years ago)

http://manifestonews.org/QIN/publications/1230.html

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Did our job for us.

There's no shame in wanting to pass for an urban kid. I'm not a rockist, I'm a Glam Rockist. It's okay if it's all a drag act. Artifice is allowed.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Vice is one of the magazines that defines the sensibility, for better or worse, of people in their 20s in influential metropolitan areas.

I guarantee the amount of people in their 20's in NYC who know that Vice exists is maybe 10%.

― bnw (bnw), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)

momus taught me about a russian cartoon monkey in the new vice mag.

Number of ILX posters who are "people in their 20s in influential metropolitan areas" > Number of ILX posters who are Momus
So why are the number defending Vice, especially as it "defines the sensibility... of people in their 20s," so small here?

its the same 6 or 7 people that are so upset about vice. im sure if you polled ALL ILXORS most wouldnt care. like me.

― chaki_burger (chaki), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)

50,000?
Wow, that's the same number as Fall fans!

― sexyDancer, Friday, 18 June 2004 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

There's no shame in wanting to pass for an urban kid.

Wanting to pass for someone who has "negotiated racial pluralism 'at street level' all their lives" is pretty shameful in this context.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Really? You have to be 4 real, and pay your dues?

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:33 (twenty-one years ago)

http://eire.census.gov/popest/data/national/tables/NC-EST2003-as.php

there were 39,895,640 Americans 20-30 on 1 July 2003.

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:34 (twenty-one years ago)

If I'm going to give your sub-Lenny Bruce shit any creedence it might help.

(x-post)

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:35 (twenty-one years ago)

wow, 101 new answers in the time it took me to get the bus home!!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:35 (twenty-one years ago)

argh. credence. damn John Forgety.

― CeCe Peniston (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:35 (twenty-one years ago)

so assuming only 20 to 30 year olds read vice:

then ~0.125% of 20 to 30 year olds could be vice readers. like a little more than 1 in a thousand

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I thought you typed "John Forgery" there

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I never told anybody "You can't say that."

J0hn addressed the original question by saying that nobody's saying "can't."

i.e. it isn't "can't" say, it's "oughtn't," and it's a whole different deal! ... So don't argue that there's anybody saying "you can't say that." There is no such person, no such censor.

I agree with J0hn, and in the context I wanted to know why it appears that you defend a songwriter's duty to not be bound by "You oughtn't say that" in the same breath as you defend his or her duty to not see "You can't say that" as an option.

It's times like these when, in spite of your unusual ability to stay unruffled and relatively civil during disagreements, it becomes clear that you're not particularly accepting of other's views nor willing to explain those views of yours they may find puzzling.

― martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:36 (twenty-one years ago)

39,895,640 Americans 20-30 on 1 July 2003 and the percentage of them who even know there is a Vice Magazine is statistically insignificant. The number influenced by it, < 0

― Skottie, Friday, 18 June 2004 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

If you think the place to look for the zeitgeist is government statistics, well...

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

My last post was a big xpost and is re: the whole "You can't say that" comment if it's not obvious from the context clues.

― martin m. (mushrush), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:37 (twenty-one years ago)

0.017% of the overall american population reads Vice

less than 2 in 10,000.

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:38 (twenty-one years ago)

see what Momus has done? He's reduced Jon Williams to using the scientific method! WHATZ GOING ON?

― sexyDancer, Friday, 18 June 2004 19:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus, MAKEOUTCLUB.COM HAS WAY MORE MEMBERS THAN VICE HAS READERS

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:38 (twenty-one years ago)

http://shs.westport.k12.ct.us/mjvl/science.gif

GET IN MY SPACE SHUTTLE BITCHES

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:39 (twenty-one years ago)

In the end it's an issue of personal faith with me that anything is sayable. J0hn is keeping rather quiet, but from what I've seen of his work, 'saying the unsayable' plays its part too. Oughtn't and can't are the same voice as far as I'm concerned.

― Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:40 (twenty-one years ago)

no one i know who is cool likes vice

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:41 (twenty-one years ago)

for CeCe
http://www.newmetal.hpg.ig.com.br/FIGURAS/fred.jpg

― chaki_burger (chaki), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, Vice is kinda "3 years ago"

― Jon Williams!!!!! (ROFFLE!@!@!@) (ex machina), Friday, 18 June 2004 19:41 (twenty-one years ago)

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