Zero Dark Thirty - Anticipation/Discussion Thread

I think there's some room between Born on the Fourth of July and Triumph of the Will. xpost

Alfred sounding like Haneke, which is not an unworthy position.

The propaganda angle is the main reason I even want to watch this movie tbh

no one's saying there isn't room, and obviously one could say "well if Zero Dark Thirty is in poor taste for providing a streamlined, cinematic This Is What Had To Be Done narrative in support of the government, then so is Lincoln." It's a matter of degree, and when those in power are still in power, and letting us know they've given their tacit approval to the movie, one has to assume it doesn't include anything they're not comfortable with.

the administration benefits from this movie being as gripping, issue-acknowledging intelligence-respecting as possible - it suggests they were aware of the issues and a bunch of Friday Night Lights coaches when they made the choices shown in the film. if it was just USA! USA! they wouldn't get as many people to accept their pov

I thought Haneke relished porn

I guess the trick here is to not be a dumb viewer.

I know a number of pro-military people who loved the depiction of soldiers in The Hurt Locker, while I think they came off very, very poorly.

Thought THL unambiguously portrayed Jeremy R's character as an adrenaline addict, not someone who is glad for war but someone who nonetheless finds a reason for being because of it.

Haneke talked about depicting real life people and situations in an extended interview with the Hollywood Reporter alongside the guys who wrote ZDT and Argo (as well John Krasinski and Judd Apatow). Haneke was disgusted by Downfall and in particular Schindler's List (using the mystery over what would come out of the shower for suspense was beyond the pale). xposts

to be clear, i'm not saying this is evil, or that people who enjoy the movie are sheep. you can like mulholland dr but if you tell me it's a masterpiece of dream logic i'm going to point out that it was a TV pilot with an "all a dream" ending attached by request of the producers for cinematic release. but if you think this isn't inherently a propaganda film meant to instill a respect for american foreign policy, you're kidding yourself.

The fact that Boal and Bigelow acknowledge that torture was *not* instrumental in catching bin Laden, but they put it in the movie anyway, is troubling.

I did too, Eric, but my sister among many others saw it as a beautiful ode to bravery and sacrifice. xposts

I guess the trick here is to not be a dumb viewer.

Always a tricky balance when dumb action is thrown into the mix, but then again, some don't know how to trust anything in movies other than tedium.

Honestly I'm interested to figure out what the hell the story is, and how there's action in it.

I did too, Eric, but my sister among many others saw it as a beautiful ode to bravery and sacrifice. xposts

I don't think that showing how soldiers can be suckered/seduced/hypnotized/brainwashed into suckling from their own mythos = them coming off very, very poorly

They're not portrayed as victims, just victims of circumstance. Win-win.

amidst all of this, i'm kind of bummed that Generation Kill seems largely forgotten.

Hoberman may also have said the same about Schindler

i was bothered by that scene too, though i think SL is (mostly) a great film.

Haneke talked about depicting real life people and situations in an extended interview with the Hollywood Reporter alongside the guys who wrote ZDT and Argo

yeah i really enjoyed that

Mr Haneke engineers some dubious moral puppeteering in his films too, in the name of spanking the audience.

yeah but they look at the audience and tell them so that makes it better (no it doesn't)

Audiences should be on their guard when they feel flattered. Audiences should be on their guard when they're getting spanked.

What a minefield.

“It’s always rape. Manipulation is rape, no?” he says. “The question is, to what end, for what purpose? Especially when you come from a German-language background. That is why in my films I try to rape the audience into independence, autonomy.”

Thinking back, Gerry might be the easiest watch the audience has ever had.

Mr Haneke engineers some dubious moral puppeteering in his films too, in the name of spanking the audience.

I agree with this in general, but I was glad that I didn't really detect this in Amour.

"Especially when you come from a German-language background."

I vas born in Dusseldorf und dat is vhy dey call me ROLFE

Don't be stupid, be a smarty, impeach Obama for war crimes.

well we'd have to impeach everybody til we get to ELIZABETH WARREN amirite?

http://arthazelwood.com/prints/posters/images/complicit=flag.gif

Don't be stupid, be a smarty, impeach Obama for war crimes.

― Zero Dark 33⅓: The Final Insult (Eric H.), Monday, December 10, 2012 4:38 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

nice.

well we'd have to impeach everybody til we get to ELIZABETH WARREN amirite?

― saltwater incursion (Dr Morbius), Monday, 10 December 2012 21:40 (5 minutes ago) Permalink

says Feingold superfan

I don't have anything much against E.W., just those who have exalted her to future savior of the Republic.

it's gonna be amazing when you come racing down the mountain on christmas morning, your heart three times bigger, throwing our illusions back to us

Why don't you have a catchy nickname for Warren fans yet? xpost

"Dr Morbius's Facebook friends"

"I don't believe that this film is being so well-received despite its glorification of American torture. It's more accurate to say it's so admired because of this."

I haven't seen this movie but surely all the people who say it is great in spite of the torture apologetics are lying and really just love torture

7m Andrew O'Hehir ‏@andohehir
I respect the hell out of @ggreenwald, e.g., but his piece on ZDT makes a number of unwarranted analytical leaps http://goo.gl/KNFFD
View summary

10m Andrew O'Hehir ‏@andohehir
Split between film critics and lefty pundits on merits of torture in ZERO DARK THIRTY is intriguing -- but the latter haven't seen it yet!
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it's weird in that context that he brings up Riefenstahl. Are all her defenders who admit their problems with the Nazi glorification in them actually hiding their secret Nazi admiration?

xp

glorification in her movies*

He and Zoller Seitz had a back and forth earlier about running straight to Leni for comparison.

<I>1) those reviewers who state that the film glorifies torture with falsehoods yet nonetheless praise the film as great; I'm arguing that this should not be possible since their view that it contains falsehood-ridden torture glorification should preclude that sort of praise; and,</I>

This is embarrassing even for Greenwald.

Glenn Kenny ‏@Glenn__Kenny
That movie doesn't say "torture works." It says "The Real doesn't care what you think of torture." Unpleasant notion but NOT THE SAME THING

when did Obama start using The Real as his Twitter name

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/12/zero-dark-thirty/all/1?ww

isn't this somewhat like what Kubrick said re: the violence in A Clockwork Orange. something to the effect of being against the torture of an innocent isn't the point--you have to consider the torture of the guilty. he wanted to put the audience in the uncomfortable position of feeling sympathy for a monster.

the same point being the successful extraction of info from torture has to be shown/argued as still wrong. if the movie merely shows torture *working* i dont think that necessarily elides that debate--cf. Kenny's point.

apparently it doesn't show torture working?

well i guess i shouldn't speak about a movie i havent seen.

that wired writeup makes me want to see it

clearly I am a terrorist