HEY JEWS

Pretty much not a joke!

O_O whoa

oof

that actually depressed me a lot more than it made me laugh

Just don't let your guard down, dude. They're going to get you.

Serious note, but I have heard more than a few philosophical debates in Jewish circles that the religion was fundamentally broken when it shifted post-Holocaust into "I will survive" mode (complicated in no small part by the relate founding of Israel). That is, there are many great tenets of Judaism, and the focus on survival in the face of adversity has obscured some of them. Me, I'm not terribly religious, but I like the surviver aspect. As I've always told people, it doesn't matter how serious I am or am not about Judaism. When they come again, they're going to come for me, no matter how hard I protest. If I likely pass the standard for persecution no matter what I do, then I might as well tenaciously, righteously ready myself. /paranoia.

The Holocaust didn't invent this survival trope. The Haggadah (~300 CE) says:

This is what has stood by our fathers and us! For not just one alone
has risen against us to destroy us, but in every generation they rise
against us to destroy us; and the Holy One, blessed be He, saves us
from their hand!

Go forth and learn what Laban the Aramean wanted to do to our father
Jacob. Pharaoh had issued a decree against the male children only,
but Laban wanted to uproot everyone - as it is said: "The Aramean
wished to destroy my father; and he went down to Egypt and sojourned
there, few in number; and he became there a nation - great and mighty
and numerous."

I remember reading a version of the Haggadah when I was a child that gave a long list of times 'they' have risen to destroy the Jewish people. If you really want to feel depressed... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism

Oh, the Holocaust didn't invent it - people have been killing Jews for millennia. Even happy ol' Purim is about that. But the Holocaust made Jewish survival a global precept, cemented by Israel, whose existence then and now barely has anything to do with any "promised land" stuff and everything to do with "we're sorry, here's a country for you."

Or, you know, not "everything" to do with that, but a lot, for sure.

or as the joke goes...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asGS0bE1abQ

(I thought it would show the name of the song in the embed - for those who don't want to clickthru to the Yidcore song, it's "They Tried to Kill Us, They Failed, Let's Eat.")

I actually have a feeling the "they always try to kill us" narrative is slightly exaggerated for the purposes of having a narrative. I would bet that actually we've made out pretty well considering we were a stateless minority for thousands of years. I almost want to write a revisionist history about this, except such things just play into the hands of the people who always want to kill us.

Which reminds me: did somebody here read The Invention of the Jewish People?

by Shlomo Sand.

Yes, I found it incredibly offensive.

Care to explain why? A lot of my friends are suggesting it to me and I find the premise iffy.

xxp: great real name!

And his brother, Kovick Sand

lol, my humor gets so much jewier in the jew thread. Glad we have this safe space.

There are a lot of book reviews that deal with the problems of the book (this is a good one: http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/indecent-proposal). Specifically I was troubled by his attempt to describe Jewish peoplehood as rising out of Zionism, thus suppressing/denying a long history of Jewish identity that stretches way back before Zionism (and that continued unrelated to Zionism in contemporary times).

thank you!

It's also very historically problematic. He writes about a lot of fields that he has no expertise (or language skills) in. It's really a political book, not a historical one, and politically it's about deemphasizing a Jewish connection to Israel.

you mean emphasizing?

Also, the Khazar thing is total bullshit: http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/06/03/the-dna-of-abraham-s-children.html

No, I mean that Sand is arguing that the historical Jewish community of Israel is a different peoplehood from the contemporary Jewish community because they aren't 'real' Jews but Khazar converts.

I always thought that whole line of reasoning was bullshit on both sides. The Khazar theory has been debunked, but it's also irrelevant. I don't find an ancient genetic connection to Israel to be a valid justification for zionism.

Yeah, you don't really need genetic connection in order to create a country or any other type of organization. I really don't get the argument.

I think the genetic justification is less important than other historical relationships to Israel; I was just pointing out that the Khazar theory is explicitly an attempt to erase a Jewish connection to Israel. Much more important in my eyes is that my ancestors have been praying three times a day for over a thousand years:

Return in mercy to Jerusalem Your city and dwell therein as You have promised; speedily establish therein the throne of David Your servant, and rebuild it, soon in our days, as an everlasting edifice. Blessed are You L-rd, who rebuilds Jerusalem. Speedily cause the scion of David Your servant to flourish, and increase his power by Your salvation, for we hope for Your salvation all day. Blessed are You L-rd, who causes the power of salvation to flourish.

The Jewish connection to Israel is emphasized throughout almost every major Jewish religious text - the liturgy, the Torah, the Talmud, the Haggadah ("next year in Jerusalem") -- Zionism arose out of this already existing context. The innovation of Zionism was that the Jewish people should take the initiative to build a Jewish State in Israel (as opposed to waiting for the Messiah), and up until the foundation of Israel in '48 numerous Jewish groups (including Chabad) were against founding a Jewish State. But there a long history of Jews yearning for Israel ("If I forget thee Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its cunning."), not to mention an unbroken Jewish presence in Israel from the Second Temple era until today.

you also don't need Jewish genes to be Jewish!

In other words, I don't think anyone has seriously made a genetic argument for Zionism. But Sand is trying to make a [false + offensive] genetic argument against it.

Mordy that's reasonable except that (1) other religions can make equally or similarly strong claims to Israel and (2) there's no modern (or any?) historical precedent for transplanting people to another continent and forming a new nation based on that sort of thing

I agree that there is no historical precedent for the Jewish return to Israel. It was an ahistorical event.

American countries perhaps?

actually I guess you could make an imperfect analogy to liberia

The almost two thousand year gap between the destruction of the Second Temple and the founding of the modern state of Israel probably means that there are no real analogues in history.

'there was historical precedence' isn't really a moral argument

not saying it is

I would bet that actually we've made out pretty well considering we were a stateless minority for thousands of years.

I'd say "despite being" vs. "considering we are". A lot of the traits and professions people affiliate with Judaism - from an emphasis on education to becoming bankers, doctors and lawyers or whatever - I believe stems historically from all those centuries Jews were denied things like land rights. With no land, Jews went to the cities, where they were forced to pursue professions other than, say, farming.

This could all be BS, of course.

recent relevant slate article says:

By combining a very thorough look at the historical record with new economic and demographic analyses, the authors summarily dismiss a great many of the underlying assumptions that have produced theories around Jewish literacy in the past. Where many tied the Jewish move into professional trades to the European era when Jews were persecuted, Botticini and Eckstein bring forward evidence that the move away from the unlettered world of premodern agriculture actually happened a thousand years earlier, when Jews were largely free to pursue the profession of their choice. And where so many have simply taken as a given universal literacy among Jews, the economists find that a majority of Jews actually weren't willing to invest in Jewish education, with the shocking result that more than two-thirds of the Jewish community disappeared toward the end of the first millennium.

yeah I thought that was a pretty inneresting theory

It's hinted at in that article (which seems to emphasize Jewish education, rather than educated Jews), but it didn't hurt that Europe and much of the rest of the world persecuted the bulk of its Jewish population either onto the trains or over to the United States, a country lacking the ingrained anti-semitism (Judaism as a capital offense) of the Old Country that was also conveniently at the apex of its reputation as an anyone-can-make-it meritocracy, heightened by the post-war boom. Certainly Hollywood made room, too. Maybe education wasn't unique to Jews, but educated Jews seemed uniquely positioned to take their skills to the new world. But who knows. Half of my 1st generation family back when were professionals, the others worked in laundromats and bars.

I wonder - and have no idea what the answer is -if American Jews and Jews elsewhere are driven toward the same stereotypical professions.

In France and Canada, yes. In Tunisia, less so.

Be funny if all 10 Tunisian Jews were doctors or lawyers. Or Hollywood moguls.

i think it was something like 5 lawyers and and their mothers.

the stereotype of moroccan jews is that they're all hairdressers

I'd watch that sitcom

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/23/world/europe/spain-citizenship-process-eased-for-sephardic-jews.html

A Sephardi friend on fb asked, "our family was expelled in 1492, and has since lived in and assimilated to other countries, how do we 'prove' it?"

Is there a strong incentive to go back to Spain?

maybe if you really want an EU passport?

http://www.asianescapes.com/gallery2/d/41785-1/Tapas+Logo.jpg

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/dec/06/is-there-a-jewish-gene/