Magic: The Gathering C/D

The Rat stands apart from most bombs in that you would almost always keep 6 lands + Rat as your starting hand. Gideon + 6 lands in ROE is a bit harder decision, though I guess keepable depending on the matchup; in M12, definitely a mulligan. (And Entreat the Angels + 6 lands is your deck giving you the finger.) Most bombs need at least some minor support to win, but the Rat wins on its own. That said, I agree Jitte was a more broken card in its block. It was kind of the perfect storm for it - slow underpowered format that had lots of stalls, not much artifact removal. Much harder to answer than Rat.

Masticore probably in the top 5 based on stories, but I wasn't playing at that time.

Exactly! I've heard stories of how, if you get TWO Pack Rats, you can play 38 Swamps and just mull until you find one, and STILL win most of the time even if you're going to 3-4 cards. I can't think of ANY other card like that (not even Jitte!)

Bonfire/Entreat are not close.

Yes and no. Without Miracle they still feel bomby but are very mana intensive obviously (you really need 7+ mana for a *big* effect). But with Miracle, they're among the most powerful effects ever to hit Limited. Playing against one of those cards, the feeling is pretty much ALWAYS "I have to race here because if they draw it, I'm dead". But as a whole, yes, not as good, because as Vinnie mentioned you can draw Entreat in your opener where it's either a worse Serra Angel or a 7 mana bomb that you may not be alive for (and I highly doubt you'd wait for 9 mana).

cards that invalidate your opponent's combat step are disgusting in limited

This + cards that are insane without mass removal. Pack Rat is no good in constructed because they can all get Supreme Verdicted away. In general anything that creates creatures every turn is going to be insane in Limited. Phyrexian Processor was another card that would just win the game right away. But at least you could Disenchant that.

Like a "Limited all-stars" list would be something like this:

Jitte
Pack Rat
Loxodon Warhammer
Oblivion Stone
Masticore
Phyrexian Processor
Basilisk Collar

Of these, I'd say Jitte and Pack Rat are easily #1 and #2. Interesting how many are artifacts. I hesitated to put Basilisk Collar on here, but the thing really is insane in basically any style of deck. With the exception of Pack Rat these were all good Constructed cards too. Can anyone think of a card with a bigger disconnect in Limited/Constructed value than that? Can you even imagine one?

Also, honorable mention to the following format warping commons:

Rancor, Pestilence, Rolling Thunder, Armadillo Clock, Sparksmith, Sprout Swarm

Siding out your deck for Lost In The Woods and 43-or-so Forests circa INN/INN/DKA?

i never lost to that though, there were maindeckable answers at common. one time i was in red-black so no enchantment removal, but i had olivia and rage thrower so i just killed all my own creatures with olivia and burned them out.

Wow, people must really hate golgari. I was getting passed crazy b/g cards tonight and took a couple opponents for a ride on the pack rat express. I can't believe someone passed me this ridiculous unbeatable card.

Here my deck:

Deviant glee
Giant growth
Ultimate price
Drudge beetle
Gatecreeper vine
Pack rat
Daggerdrome imp x 2
Thrill-kill assassin
Grisly salvage
Golgari keyrune
Dead Reveler x 2
Sewer shambler
Stab wound
Dead Revenant
Desecration demon
Korozda monitor
Jarad's orders
Sluiceway scorpion
Corpsejack menace
Death's presence (foil)
Assassin's strike

Golgari Guildgate
Forest x 6
Swamp x 10

After wrecking the first two matches with pack rat and desecration demon, I ended up getting killed by stab wounds out of a Rakdos deck. Still ended up in 2nd place and we t home with 3 prize packs, a personal best!

Siding out your deck for Lost In The Woods and 43-or-so Forests circa INN/INN/DKA?

homersimpsonboxing.dec

everyone seems really caught up in drafting superfast limited decks lately. i have just been kicking back, prioritizing trestle trolls, and durdling them to death. had great success today with a 5-color axebane deck, for real. it helped that i got passed a bunch of splashy bombs, of course. i guess i'm just saying keep your eyes open for the possibility to play slow decks, cuz they are good.

yeah hhaha i was tired of the 2 color aggro decks so at FNM the other night i drafted golgari splashing Mercurial Chemister. it felt good, though i had to play my roommate in the first round and he's better than me and had a strong deck so i didn't get the payoff for it

i've seen 5-color axebane decks work. playing against turn 5 Risen Sanctuaries is really tough. this is really kind of a board position format - good offensive creatures vs. good defensive creatures, and a couple that are both. Frostburn Weird and Orge Gatekeeper are both excellent because 4 power and 4 toughness are both super relevant. unfortunately Gatekeeper needs help but hey, it at least powers up Axebanes (and remember that even with a Gate out, Axebane gives you an extra mana when you have the Ogre out - an interaction I bet many many people miss). only issue with those decks is that Stab Wound can really destroy you.

even if that deck can work in some games, can you really count on getting the right draw? also getting passed enough axebane.

the idea is to pick up 2 in pack 1, then start getting bombs then hopefully another one in pack 2 or 3? I agree it's risky. Gatecreeper Vine helps a lot with this too.

or I guess my other q is, lets say you're full out going for this - what cards do you prioritize? it seems like your need for picking up mana fixing ends up taking up lots of your best picks

well lots of high-mana stuff like Sanctuary comes around late. but I'd say obviously you kind of transition into it after the first pack, then you go for bombs and guildmages. can't say I've ever built it myself, just that I've seen it work. you pick the strongest card in every pack.

i think that's the wrong approach to that deck - to me it's something you fall into AFTER you draft some bombs/guildmages. if youre only ramping into axebane stags and horncallers chants then you were in the archetype for the wrong reason, not that those are bad to have but you want something higher impact before you move in on them

like you just can't draft expecting to be passed top tier cards

yeah but I guess I'm wondering at what point you realize it's worth it

yeah this is what I mean to say, bombs/guildmages > manawalls, basically. if your first pack shakes out that way you can go for it but of course it's true that you can just wind up ramping into nothing

that said, 4 or 5-color green actually does kinda work even without a bunch of Axebanes. Basically built a base G/W deck that splashes two colors for rares/bomby guildmages/good commons like Stab Wound - you draft a lot of gates, Gatecreeper Vine, Axebane, the Promenade land, etc ; slow mana base but your average card is much better than your opposition (hopefully). You can even go 16 lands this way. Just not passing on power rares/uncommons gives you a lot of ways to win. Maybe the most fun deck to play too since the interactions are so much stranger. It's easy to grab lots of Gates if there are 3-5 different ones you want to play, which makes Ogre very good of course.

like this is one I drafted recently:

2 Gatecreeper Vine
1 Axebane Guardian
1 Dreg Mangler
3 Ogre Gatekeeper
2 Voidwielder
1 Centaur Healer
1 Growing Ranks
1 Righteous Authority
2 Centaur's Herald
2 Knightly Valor
1 Slime Molding
1 Eyes in the Skies
1 Stab Wound
1 Kurodza Guildmage
1 Towering Indrik
1 Trostani's Judgement
1 Arrest

1 Grove of the Guardian
4 Various Gates
12 Basic Land

First pick here was the Grove, then Growing ranks, then a Herald, Eyes, etc. Picked up Gatecreeper late in the pack which was nice. Then pack 2 all the good Golgari stuff came + an Axebane and Vine and a late Voidweilder which I quite frankly hated out. I got a late Azorius Gate and thought that maybe I could go for it. Pack 3 I got a pick 3 Righteous Authority which I didn't have to pass. I guess this isn't really too wild but suffice to say between the 3 manawalls and 4 gates I never had any mana problems. My early game sucked but turn 4 Ogres and turn 5 Voidweilders really tend to slow things down.

that's an interesting deck and it does seem playable. but I think the gap between that and a slightly worse version of that deck is probably enormous.

that deck is kind of a bad example because it was one of those weird swiss drafts where you get pick 9 Centaur's Heralds and pick 5 Guildmages. but the idea is that it allows you to take advantage of good late picks like Voidweilders instead of playing like a Crocodile or something. i've done it going G/W/B/r where I splashed an Auger Spree and a Carnival Hellsteed too. basically Green/anything and late picks like Vines or Axebanes or off-color gates really set you up for it. I've seen a lot of Gates come pick 10-12 so you can grab those and if things shake out you wind up playing them.

won a draft last night with bellows lizard

i'm slowly making my way through the checklist for this format, the goal is always to play every card legitimately in limited - i got pretty close with innistrad, was only missing a few rares, graveyard shovel, and infernal plunge iirc

AVR was a good format for this because you often had to really stretch to get 23 playables :/

Anyway one word of warning for 4/5 color green is that when you're playing something like 2 Axebanes, a Gatecreeper, and a Keyrune, if you're also running 17 lands then you basically are playing 21/40 cards as mana sources. Meaning if your opponent is drawing 2-3 removal spells you can easily just stall out because you have to get a little luckier to win a topdeck war. I feel weird going to 15 lands but 16 seems doable if you have the Vine.

yeah but each mana source is statistically less useful to your situation (early game) and you're also increasing your mulligan chances

I think I'm just too risk averse for these kinda decks

i didnt even try for AVR, too many stone unplayables like grounded rather than just the super niche things like moonmist or wreath of geists. RTR's are much closer to the latter luckily

would you ever pick cards like lobber crew or doorkeeper for a deck like this or do the core defenders need to be in green?

w a quick glance thru the RTR card list, search warrant and search the city are the only cards for which i can't think of a situation that i'd play them. theres some others with extremely narrow cases though like racecourse fury that i won't be bummed if i never get to use

actually i just thought of one for search warrant but i don't expect it to ever happen

i won't pick either of those Moodles - Armory Guard, Ogre Gatekeeper, and Trestle Troll are all good 4+ toughness guys that go with Green's "friendly" RTR colors

lived the dream today, and beat a pack rat deck. it helped that i had both supreme verdict and detention sphere.

had a strange draft tonight, was well into azorius when I opened a pack rat. ended up with:

lyev skyknight
new prahv guildmage
azorius keyrune
seller of songbirds
2x trostani's judgment
azorius justiciar
avenging arrow
armory guard
skyline predator
paralyzing grasp
isperia's skywatch
voidwielder
2x inaction injunction
2x inspiration
syncopate
cyclonic rift
stealer of secrets
tower drake
soulsworn spirit
transguile promenade
+pack rat and one swamp
.
dnp
blustersquall
x2 cancel
armory guard
azorius arrester
rogue's passage

looks good, i think i like cancel better than paralyzing grasp though and i'd consider keeping it real and playing azorius arrester over pack rat, i dont think this deck needs the rat

I like that Search the City and Sphinx of the Chimes belong in the same currently undiscovered deck (it is probably not a very good deck)

I seem to like grasp more than most people...has saved me against a lot of bombs, tho I guess I had the white removal too. only drew the rat twice in ten games, it helped win one and was killed immediately in the other. it was def an aspirational inclusion and maybe would slightly hurt this deck's win percentage over a hundred games.

one card I really underrated until recently is inaction injunction.

i dunno, i'm okay with Pack Rat splash there, more concerned with Syncopate over Arrester

won a sealed tournament yesterday for a Commander's Arsenal. i don't play commander nor do i care about any of the cards in it but it's a very limited print run thing and seems to be selling for $200+ on ebay already, so i guess i'll just stash it in my closet and hope it builds value as a collector's item or something.

my top8 draft deck was pretty silly and really demonstrates what you can do in multicolor formats if you're willing to take mana fixing over decent spells:

1 archon of the triumvirate
1 sphinx of the chimes
1 isperia's skywatch
1 rubbleback rhino
1 towering indrik
1 ogre jailbreaker
1 korozda monitor
1 runewing
1 trestle troll
1 axebane guardian
1 drudge beetle
1 doorkeeper
1 centaur's herald

1 rakdos's return
1 syncopate
1 explosive impact
1 launch party
1 inspiration
1 stab wound
2 ultimate price

1 selesnya keyrune
1 azorius keyrune

2 transguild promenade
2 izzet guildgate
1 rakdos guildgate
1 azorius guildgate
5 forest
4 swamp
2 island

i had no idea if this was any good when i finished drafting it but it won out surprisingly easily so i think i'm going to try it more often

rufus had a Pizza: The Gathering party for his 10th birthday. him and 10 magic-loving friends.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/68868_10151939698352137_245334417_n.jpg

the game store here in town is magic central and that place is PACKED on friday nights for tournaments. i'm happy for them. its a crazy scene there.

when I was a 10 y/o all of my magic cards were in piles exactly like that one

I also ate a lot of pizza

but I eat more pizza now, because I can buy myself pizza

things went exactly as planned

Awesome job Ciderpress!

I'm definitely warming up to the Axebane Guardian multicolor strategy. I dipped my toe into this during my last draft a couple weeks ago although it was more of a Golgari deck splashing red. The bonus ramp from Axebane + defenders really helped a lot.

Also, I wish my son would have a Magic pizza party. I'm the big dork in the house who has to twist his arm to play a game or two with me, even though he usually beats me.

xxxp - overall I think this deck can definitely work, but you're really vunlerable to bad draws, especially with no Vines. either you don't get the color you need or the opposite happens and you get too much mana and your opponent removes the few creatures you do draw. this kind of deck seems to really rely on stalling out early to get the big stuff to work. I guess I'd have to see it in action but I'm guessing you had enough to stall out (lots of x/4s there) until the Archon dropped? (which is such a stupid card, really)

yeah it seems like if you make it to late game you are prob in a very good place cause your average card is better than their average card, but it's gonna have way more variance than a solid rakdos deck

exactly. I'm noticing the same with going 2 colors as opposed to 3. with 3 colors I don't really lose too many matches without getting color-screwed at least one game. with 2 I don't have the mana problems but my average card isn't as good and the deck lacks depth. I think there are ways around this - I'm starting to get really good with Golgari and balls-out Izzet, while being more mindful of "if you're going to splash a 3rd color, try to not go below four-drops or powerful three-drops for that color"

I almost always end up w/ a pretty traditional 2 color guild deck. prob due to my risk aversion on some level.

i honestly don't think there's much variance introduced from playing 5 colors if you actually draft enough fixing. a normal 2 color draft deck has 9 sources of one color and 8 sources of the other. my deck has 8-9 sources each of green, black, and blue, and 5-6 sources each for red and white. even on the 2 'splash' colors that's much better mana than you normally get splashing a card or 2 off of 2-3 off-color sources or whatever

i think the solid rakdos deck has at least as much variance, since if you get behind on board to another aggressive deck at all then suddenly your deck is full of wimpy on-curve creatures that can't block a 3/3 instead of over-curve creatures that attack well. this has happened to me a lot and it feels awful

Ciderpress, how many people attend your tournaments? The prize support at my LGS seems pretty weak by comparison.

our normal prize support isn't anywhere near as much as a commanders arsenal is worth, they've just been running these tournaments each weekend to 'give away' the 5 commanders arsenals they got since it's a better community thing for them to make the money on tournament entry fees than just to mark them way up and sell them for $300 to some rich kids or whatever

FNM here usually draws like 35-50 people for draft and 20-30 for standard, it varies a lot depending on how new the set is. prize pool is usually $5 store credit per entrant, like i said this tournament was an unusual one