izzet only really plays a long game
― ciderpress, Saturday, 20 October 2012 17:54 (eleven years ago) link
oh yeah. i admit i haven't done much with Izzet, just that the cards seem to be slower. i think i've only made one 'core' Izzet deck which really just tried to build advantages over time and got crushed by faster decks (unless you get Frostburn Weird early)
― frogbs, Saturday, 20 October 2012 19:27 (eleven years ago) link
that said I'm looking at Stealer of Secrets as a great late-pickup in both Izzet and Azorius. Izzet can cast a Fire/Charm/Traitourous Instinct to clear the way and Azorius has lots of detain stuff to clear blockers.
― frogbs, Saturday, 20 October 2012 19:36 (eleven years ago) link
- i'm an izzet fan insofar as it pairs nicely with azorius and rakdos. the key, of course, is stealer of secrets. if you aren't running at least 2 of those izzet is probably not the guild to play, but if you can consistently get one of them out you are in a god situation.
- goblin electromancer is also good, and works really nicely with key izzet cards like traitorous/inspiration/inaction etc. the izzet creature base isn't bad either considering you have all the nice red unleash guys to pick from.
- people don't seem to realize yet how vital centaur's herald is to selesnya decks. at my draft last night i saw them tabling.
- pack rat is the best limited card i know. it's pretty much unbeatable. it works a little bit better in golgari decks with grisly salvage, stall tactics, etc, but is worth switching colors pack 3 to play. there is no reason to EVER pass this up.
― fennel cartwright, Saturday, 20 October 2012 21:58 (eleven years ago) link
https://twitter.com/Juzam_/status/259715165707194368
― ciderpress, Saturday, 20 October 2012 22:29 (eleven years ago) link
on another note, sphere of safety is the most hardcore lockdown card in multiples (which is easy). if you get 2 out, each creature has to pay 4 to attack you, and that's not even considering any other enchantments you can play. i almost lost against this nice little combo yesterday, but managed to stab wound other d00d to death.
― fennel cartwright, Saturday, 20 October 2012 22:47 (eleven years ago) link
doing a draft now where I wound up beating this guy game 1, thanks to him drawing only 2 land. he starts to bitch about it saying stuff like "you're the best" and "oh, so it's all random right?" before concluding that mtgo wouldn't let him win because it was "my turn to win" and then...
http://i47.tinypic.com/35b86x2.png
― frogbs, Saturday, 20 October 2012 22:48 (eleven years ago) link
ars arcanum RTR draft article is up: http://puremtgo.com/articles/ars-arcanum-rtr-draft-overview
some very interesting results in there, especially the guild winrates. i've been saying izzet is really good for a couple weeks now and everyone looks at me weird, but there it is.
― ciderpress, Thursday, 25 October 2012 17:31 (eleven years ago) link
Very interesting. one thing he didn't mention w/r/t Izzet is Traitorous Instinct, which turns an opponent's "save one blocker for Stealer/Cobblebrute" into "I just took a ton of damage". that's a card I was surprised tables so much. the +2/+0 is really big.
Izzet isn't necessarily bad; it's like Black Loner was in AVR - I think people realized straight on that Izzet had a tricky strategy and got outclassed fast, and as a result it got underdrafted, and now it has a high winrate.
One thing I noticed with Golgari is that it pairs with Selesnya and Rakdos. So 1st-picking a Golgari Guildmage with the plan of going G/W/B or B/R/G is fine. Golgari does have some excellent uncommons. Plus Grisly Savage, which is really great with Scavenge, since it's basically an Impulse with upside. I am also really liking Treasured Find.
I suspect he's correct about Voidweilder. What he says is definitely true - Man o' War type creatures are always better than they look in Limited. What follows is Dramatic Rescue can also be very good. Especially since you can nerf a populate trigger while it's still on the stack.
― frogbs, Thursday, 25 October 2012 19:00 (eleven years ago) link
on tuesday I drafted a mostly golgari deck but there was soo much izzet tabling that my sideboard ended up almost being an izzet deck. also I pulled a foil niv-mizzet.
I have only drafted rtr twice at this point but playing against a strong populate deck seems...very difficult. maybe it's just my limited experience but that's the only deck that always seems to destroy me.
― iatee, Thursday, 25 October 2012 23:01 (eleven years ago) link
speaking of tempo izzet, my favourite izzet deck so far:
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/A5sr66cCAAAvzLj.png
― webber, Friday, 26 October 2012 01:05 (eleven years ago) link
wow, that's crazy. did you lose a game with that??
here's one I did - went 3-0 in Swiss and got a very nice rare in the process :)
http://www.raredraft.com/watch?d=3kn6i#all
― frogbs, Friday, 26 October 2012 01:54 (eleven years ago) link
almost lost my first game (to a guy that didn't submit his deck!) because i drew 14 of my 16 lands and he removed all my creatures, but after that it was relatively smooth sailing. looking at your draft i think you way undervalue knightly valor, and you seemed to go hard towards izzet and later selesnya when there was no real reason to deviate from azorius? what did your deck end up being? wu splash g?
― webber, Friday, 26 October 2012 04:01 (eleven years ago) link
p1p11, sure. I'm not really big on the card even though it's been doing well for me. I wanted to try the Cobblebrute/Detain/Persuit deck but it didnt quite work out. My view on Valor is that I usually don't want to play more than one and they come around often.
not sure what you mean toward "go hard towards izzet" - the 3 cards with red I took in pack 1 weren't early at the expense of good Azorius cards. I like to go 3 colors in this format since it can be tough to get 23 playables in just one combination. I like having a "main" 2-color combo which is 18-20 of your playables and then the remaining as a splash. I only wound up with 2 green cards in my deck - Centaur Healer and Loxodon Smiter. Maybe not really worth the splash for two above-average three drops? On the other hand I didn't really have too many options outside of that.
what really wound up happening is I would drop a Stealer of Secrets, then keep using Dramatic Rescue/detainers/Voidweilder/Trostani's Judgement to remove the threats. Stealer w/ Knightly Valor is very good by the way (I'm sure you know)
― frogbs, Friday, 26 October 2012 04:17 (eleven years ago) link
is dramatic rescue really that good? I mean in that context you're getting the card back w/ stealer. and I guess it kills tokens. maybe I'm just thinking about the card w/o the context of the set...
― iatee, Friday, 26 October 2012 04:22 (eleven years ago) link
often you get a mana advantage doing that. as the ars arcanium article says, bounce is pretty good with all the tokens and scavenge running around. plus Knightly Valor, Common Bond, and Persuit of Flight do get played. a lot of blue-based decks are really tempo decks; you can delay threats for a while and punch through damage, and Rescue is a big part of that. what would you have taken over it?
― frogbs, Friday, 26 October 2012 04:36 (eleven years ago) link
grasp
― iatee, Friday, 26 October 2012 04:38 (eleven years ago) link
i really hate removal like that
― frogbs, Friday, 26 October 2012 04:42 (eleven years ago) link
finally read that article w/ the stats
voidwelder might be underrated but best common is ridiculous
― iatee, Friday, 26 October 2012 04:48 (eleven years ago) link
you could make good arguments for Frostburn Weird, Stab Wound, Centaur Healer, and Auger Spree too. Voidweilder IS very good but sometimes it's just expensive, sorcery speed bounce. When you're on the offensive or racing against flyers that 1/4 body doesn't help much. I like Rescue because you can hit a token in response to a Rootborn Defenses or whatever.
― frogbs, Friday, 26 October 2012 04:55 (eleven years ago) link
it really should be 3U
― iatee, Friday, 26 October 2012 04:57 (eleven years ago) link
that would be pretty crazy
― frogbs, Friday, 26 October 2012 04:59 (eleven years ago) link
a 1/3 for 3u would be fine, i think; the difference between 3 and 4 toughness is pretty huge
not sure what you mean toward "go hard towards izzet" - the 3 cards with red I took in pack 1 weren't early at the expense of good Azorius cards.
i feel like skyline predator and knightly valor are very good azorius cards, and there's nothing wrong with seller of songbirds, either. you say you often play 3 colours due to a lack of playables, but every time you picked an off-colour card there was a decent (though not always amazing) on-colour option. maybe it's worth splashing green because smiter and healer are very good (i would have also been tempted to pick up common bond p2p8), but i feel like splashing only for power is better than splashing to get enough playables
― webber, Friday, 26 October 2012 06:33 (eleven years ago) link
speaking of fine tuned decks. note the 3 auger spree and 2 rakdos guildgate that i did not include.
http://i46.tinypic.com/1z3rp87.jpg
(i lost in the finals to an izzet deck.)
― fennel cartwright, Friday, 26 October 2012 10:12 (eleven years ago) link
I was wondering why you didn't have the Charm in there, then I realized that half your critters are x/1's. I dunno; I might have gone with Red here, if only because it helps clear out opposing flyers. Is Sewer Shambler really worth playing so many of? (I'm torn on it)
i feel like skyline predator and knightly valor are very good azorius cards, and there's nothing wrong with seller of songbirds, either.
tbh I don't like Skyline too much - I actually like Insperia's Skyknight with the detain ability better. though 3/3 vs. 3/4 may be a big deal. Knightly Valor - I think you're right, I do undervalue it. I would probably like to have two in there. Seller of Songbirds is usually underwhelming for me. Neither body tends to matter. i only really like it because it allows you to get some use out of the populate on Trostani's Judgement.
― frogbs, Friday, 26 October 2012 13:40 (eleven years ago) link
4 toughness is the magic number in this set. I've had great experiences with Skyline Predator, sometimes it shuts down several attackers. Though Skyknight is good too. Voidwielder is fine where it is at 5 mana, it's still quite good. I got so sick of playing against Mist Raven in AVR.
― Vinnie, Friday, 26 October 2012 15:29 (eleven years ago) link
oh yeah, it's always good to catch someone off guard with it, but the difference between that and Wolfir Avenger is that you're not likely to be attacked by 3/x's on turn 6 or 7, and if you are then some part of your gameplan went wrong. the only 3 power flyers are in W/U. there are lots of 4+ toughness guys you can get that come out earlier - I like Armory Guard, for example.
agreed that Voidwielder is great where it stands - I would argue it's probably top 5 common, but if I'm going U/B/R for example no way am I taking it over Auger Spree or Stab Wound
― frogbs, Friday, 26 October 2012 15:45 (eleven years ago) link
here's my TOP SECRET deck for gameday tomorrow
4 Delver of Secrets4 Snapcaster Mage4 Guttersnipe3 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Pillar of Flame4 Thought Scour3 Unsummon2 Essence Scatter2 Izzet Charm4 Searing Spear2 Brimstone Volley1 Syncopate
4 Steam Vents4 Sulfur Falls8 Island5 Mountain2 Hellion Crucible
numbers could change a bit still. sideboard has more counters, the 4th hellkite, and 2 more hellion crucible so you can board into a better long-game deck.
― ciderpress, Friday, 26 October 2012 17:51 (eleven years ago) link
i think the 4x Bonfire got cut off cider
― frogbs, Friday, 26 October 2012 18:42 (eleven years ago) link
Ars Arcanum ranked Izzet with white splash pretty highly. What is the key white card to splash if you are in Izzet aggro?
― Moodles, Friday, 26 October 2012 18:49 (eleven years ago) link
I have an idea for a Seance deck but I can't figure out the specifics yet. I love the idea of Seancing tokens and then populating to cheat a big ol' Worldspine into play. I think I will need black for Grisly Savage and maybe Jarad's Orders. Also that new mythic angel seems very good with Seance if I'm reading it correctly.
― frogbs, Friday, 26 October 2012 18:51 (eleven years ago) link
a) bonfire is a lot less crucial when everyone's playing farseek decks instead of birds of paradise decks, and b) i don't have any and i think there's a chance they crash hard if there's no birds of paradise replacement in Gruul so i don't want to buy them.
― ciderpress, Friday, 26 October 2012 19:12 (eleven years ago) link
i wanted to port over my UWRb seance deck from last standard but then i realized that thragtusk interacts too well with seance to not run, so now i'm looking at a 5 color deck and fuck that i'd rather just play epic experiment if i want a goofy combo kill
― ciderpress, Friday, 26 October 2012 19:14 (eleven years ago) link
Ars Arcanum ranked Izzet with white splash pretty highly. What is the key white card to splash if you are in Izzet aggro?― Moodles, Friday, October 26, 2012 2:49 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Moodles, Friday, October 26, 2012 2:49 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i may be overrating skyknight but it's been very good both for and against me so far
― ciderpress, Friday, 26 October 2012 19:22 (eleven years ago) link
oh wait i just noticed you said aggro, so maybe not sphinx's revelation or trostani's judgment
― ciderpress, Friday, 26 October 2012 19:23 (eleven years ago) link
revelation's probably still good enough though in any deck
also keep in mind that if you're splashing you're either not an aggro deck or not a good aggro deck. aggro wants to be 2 colors in order to cast all their creatures on curve every game
― ciderpress, Friday, 26 October 2012 19:27 (eleven years ago) link
seance deck is really fun. i am a couple temple gardens off this build right now. it's still been OK. the key is to mill effectively. i think BG mill is too slow, personally, but would love to run black for the ability to sacrifice my tokens for profit. i'm mainly in blue for armored skaab and mirror-mad, which seem tailor-made for the seance deck. the key is seancing them from the grave to get your mill engine going, then drop a turn 6 craterhoof.
angel of serenity is actually not too amazing in the seance deck. it's ok, but i almost prefer sphinx of uthuun. populate in general is good but almost overkill. you can win effectively without populating stuff. although, in my experience so far, people are so scared of the V-G guildmage that they waste good removal on it. i'll take it.
4 Séance4 Detention Sphere2 Growing Ranks2 Supreme Verdict
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim3 Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage2 Dawntreader Elk1 Armada Wurm4 Armored Skaab3 Mirror-Mad Phantasm1 Acidic Slime2 Thragtusk1 Angel of Serenity1 Sphinx of Uthuun2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Temple Garden4 Hallowed Fountain4 Sunpetal Grove4 Glacial Fortress4 Hinterland Harbor1 Plains2 Forest1 Island
SB: 3 Sundering GrowthSB: 2 Angel of Glory's RiseSB: 3 Slayer of the WickedSB: 2 Witchbane OrbSB: 2 Pithing NeedleSB: 2 Feeling of Dread
― fennel cartwright, Monday, 29 October 2012 00:19 (eleven years ago) link
I think I'm joining mtgo tonight :|
― iatee, Monday, 29 October 2012 00:23 (eleven years ago) link
one of us! one of us!
― webber, Monday, 29 October 2012 01:19 (eleven years ago) link
make sure you learn the interface a bit before you start playing real events because some things are not super intuitive. i think they give a free new player practice m13 draft now though which should help with that.
― ciderpress, Monday, 29 October 2012 01:24 (eleven years ago) link
yeah I may not even play beyond the practice drafts but there's a hurricane and I'm bored so
― iatee, Monday, 29 October 2012 01:25 (eleven years ago) link
so guys, i'm thinking of starting a bot franchise :3
― fennel cartwright, Monday, 29 October 2012 06:45 (eleven years ago) link
fennel - you should run mirror-mad combo there. the idea is you play one mirror-mad, get it into play with Seance (on your opponent's turn), then use its ability, which shuffles the token into your deck and mills, effectively milling your whole deck out. play one lab maniac, Seance it into play on your turn, bingo gazingo
this is definitely something I want to work on - Seance is my favorite card in type and I took a Seance deck to a top 4 finish at a big local cash tournament, but losing Merfolk Looter kinda sucks. I agree that Sphinx of Uthuun is great, I'd run two. When Seance is giving you Fact or Fictions or 5 life + 3/3 tokens twice a turn (if you count the activation on your opponent's turn) you're pretty much unbeatable.
― frogbs, Monday, 29 October 2012 13:20 (eleven years ago) link
anyway. just wanted to offer a few thoughts on some RTR cards for Limited:
Perilous Shadow - nobody ever seems to want to take this. think of it this way. if his ability was 1: +1/+1 until end of turn, I think it would probably look better. but effectively, that's what it is. compared to other shades, the Shadow is better because A) it has the magical 4 toughness and B) half its mana requirement is colorless, so you can sink all your mana into this to swing for 8+ as the same goes on.
Voidweilder - I'm not finding it quite as good as the article above did, but vs. Selesnya this is incredible.
Insperia's Skynight/Skyline Predator - outside of Azorius's best uncommons (Skymark Roc, Lyev Skynight), there are almost no other creautres with flying and more than 2 power. so the 3/3 flying body on Skynight is actually very relevant.
Stealer of Secrets - I have drafted more of these than any other card and will continue to nab these so long as they're cycling throughout the table the way they have been online. Both Izzet and Azorius have plenty of ways to abuse this and I've had matches where I'd drop one of these turn 3 and just play like an old-school Ophidian deck. In addition to one-time effects like detain, Tratorious Instinct, and bounce, he's really great with Persuit of Flight. Also, with Rakdos and unleash, a lot of creatures may not be blocking anyway.
Cobblebrute - Similar to Stealer, but with +3 damage instead of the draw. Good vanilla creatures are always underrated.
Chorus of Might - Forget the mana cost; this is only really played late-game anyway. I love to pack one of these in any green deck because it punches through so much late-game damage when needed. Imagine it as "+5/+5 and trample" and it suddenly looks a lot better; I've rarely casted it for less.
Knightly Valor - I think webber is right about this card. It's so insane on any flying creature and the 2/2 vigilant is not only populate bait but a little safeguard in case your guy gets removed right away.
Trostani's Judgement - you know "removal is removal" but I really wouldn't take this unless you're sure you can use the populate. Otherwise it's simply too expensive.
Eyes in the Skies - early on I predicted this to be one of the best commons in the set. Turns out the 1/1 flyers are usually never relevant, so the only way this card really gets good is if you have a Centaur or big Ooze out already.
Thrill-Kill Assassin - this guy is seriously good. while lots of creatures have the "magic" 4 toughness, many of those don't have the 3 power needed to kill an unleashed one of these.
Zanikev Locust - I feel Scavenge is a bit understated in draft, particularly this guy and Sewer Shambler. If you have Grisly Savages you can get card advantage up the wazoo with these. Plus as mentioned 3/3 for 6 ain't so bad.
Annihilating Fire - not as good as I initially thought; double colored cards are very hard to cast unless you're based in red, which only leaves R/B/U, which is not one of the better 3-color archetypes
Centaur's Herald - just remember, without populate, this is kinda just a 3/3 vanilla for 4 mana that is very bad vs. bounce
The Charms - these can be kind of a trap, since they seem to fit so well into a guild plan. They're made specifically for them! But only the Izzet one is really *good* - the others are okay (Selesnya, Azorius), situational (Golgari) or unplayable (Rakdos)
The Guildmages - all are first pick worthy, even Nivix. once you get 6-8 mana and can start doubling spells like Inaction Injunction, Tratorious Instinct, Annihilating Fire, Inspiration, etc., it becomes very dangerous. just remember you need to hold down the Control key to hold priority.
Heroes Reunion - the Ars Arcanum article is totally right about Izzet - it really has trouble vs. any lifegain strategy. they'll gladly burn a card and 6 mana to hit you for five, so I'm always glad to side this in against them. trust me on this.
― frogbs, Monday, 29 October 2012 19:00 (eleven years ago) link
selesnya and golgari charms are both great!
― iatee, Monday, 29 October 2012 19:03 (eleven years ago) link
i think you're too down on Centaur's Herald, i think it's the best mono-green common. being able to pay the 4 mana over 2 turns, make the 3/3 on turn 3, and/or potentially get a free chump block are all relevant, and it's the cog that makes the populate engine work.
i don't think this card is weaker because of the bounce spells, it's more like Dramatic Rescue and Voidwielder are better because of this card.
also Selesnya Charm is much stronger than Izzet Charm in limited, it's the best one by a fair margin
― ciderpress, Monday, 29 October 2012 19:33 (eleven years ago) link
it would be a strong card even if it only have two of the abilities
― iatee, Monday, 29 October 2012 19:34 (eleven years ago) link
had
― iatee, Monday, 29 October 2012 19:35 (eleven years ago) link
also i'm glad you've come around on Knightly Valor, that card legitimately wins games. Pursuit of Flight is really good too and people are just starting to pick up on it now.
Chemister's Trick is a card that has played a lot better for me than the 12th pick i get it at every draft and I'd like to try it out more to see exactly how often it's good.
― ciderpress, Monday, 29 October 2012 19:42 (eleven years ago) link