C/D LENA DUNHAM (THE DEFINITIVE POLL)

anyway i wonder how this is going to turn out lmao
http://www.dailydot.com/entertainment/nbc-fuck-my-twenties-tumblr-tv-show/

i dont necc buy that, and even so an ex-classmate of dunhams has written about how at their school there were many ppl of color in dunhams social circle, and im sure table is the table will come by any minute now to say that the same is/was true of oberlin. i

in any even its not that an all-white group of young women is somehow unbelievable -- its just that right now in that melieu its exactly as believable -- maybe LESS believable -- than a more diverse group of friends. 'girls' gets singled out in particular because its presumed to be a) representative of a generation or socio-cultural class and b) more invested in issues of identity and representation than other tv shows. (whether or not those two presumptions are fair is debatable)

All-white Always Sunny...

i dont necc buy that, and even so an ex-classmate of dunhams has written about how at their school there were many ppl of color in dunhams social circle, and im sure table is the table will come by any minute now to say that the same is/was true of oberlin. i

but its about her perception not the reality of it. if shes oblivious she is oblivious. i think we're demanding more of her than we would practically any other artist

keep in mind btw that i regularly listen to music by sociopaths but still

being "presumed to be" is crucial here. i don't engage this show on the basis that it is *IMPORTANT* any more than The Walking Dead or whatever else I watch on a Sunday night.

glad max engaged me b/c i think he's the person who's opinion im simultaneously closest to yet somewhere have a distinctly more laissez faire attitude about it

i guess im becoming someone libertarian about the whole thing b/c to me its like, hand wringing over whether or not lena dunham is 'problematic' really doesnt do anything for anyone except i guess donald glover

are there enough black showrunners, are black students being accepted into film programs, are they promoted at the same rate as white colleagues, are there enough black execs to greenlight black shows, etc etc etc strikes me as the more worthwhile point of contention

at a certain point i dont care enough about lena dunham's soul to be like, yo shes so problematic

that essay in thisrecording is racist trash, tho

we demand more of her b/c we expect more of her!

does anyone find that picture Roz posted unfortunate?

oh yeah, i agree with that -- the structural problems need to be addressed. dunhams show became a flashpoint for these issues b/c of the presumptions i was talking abt upthread -- part of this is kind of an intra-left 2nd vs 3rd wave feminism discussion -- if you dont start from the 2nd wave representation-of-women position you dont get the 3rd-wave excluded-minorities response [put crudely]

do 'we' or do ppl who see themselves as being a part of her particular social world?

i cant really say her experience in life has been anything like mine, so its hard for me to really identify with it. instead it feels like a chance to see a world i did not normally feel a part of but am familiar with via college (and i'm not talking about her privilege even per se, but also just idk being women & being NYers and all that other stuff that makes her from a particular culture that actually feels slightly alien to me)

not to make a bigger deal of it than it is & i certainly empathize w/ anyone of color who maybe does feel more or less a part of that world but is often written out of it.

i mean, these criticisms aren't wrong, it just feels like such a myopic microscope at the end of the day

xxp

is lena dunham the JOHN HUGHES of our generation??

well i'm overstating it to say its been NOTHING like mine, i too went to college & didn't know what to do with my life after school, i mean its the simultaneous insider/ outsider thing where she's dealing w/ the same bigger questions but she's someone who i guess is coming from a different place with it, which is what interests me -- its alien enough that i'm like, what do ppl like this think? but close enough where they're asking questions about things i also was trying to figure out answers to

anyway i'm not sure where i'm going with this

maybe this is a funny comparison point but to me its kind of like Frasier. like, i dont really know anything about that lifestyle but otoh i can relate to some of the situations. like, i too have known old men with dogs who like beer. i mean i think girls is better than frasier, but i don't think its so much better that i start taking out the magnifying glass to kelsey grammar's likely-awful views on race

although he did produce Girlfriends (also a good show, but where were the non-African American women? it is called Girlfriends after all) (not being at all serious about the reverse racism charge there btw just making fun of the implied universiality of the title of "Girls")

i cant really say her experience in life has been anything like mine, so its hard for me to really identify with it.

dawg u both went to lib-arts colleges in ohio

Bring back The Beverly Hillbillies.

yeah i clarified later --> i'm talking about being raised in NYC literati family & having your parents pay your tab & being a woman & living in NYC as a young person etc.

i mean i was raised in an apt by a single mom on welfare im not saying i had it super hard or something, i was really lucky, but there was never a time in my life when i thought i was going to be doing anything other than working

or to put it another way, her experience in life feels about as distant to me as frasier's

dawg u both went to lib-arts colleges in ohio

― Sandy Denny Real Estate (jaymc), Monday, October 15, 2012 3:14 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

eh a fair amount of self-segregation happens @ colleges

is some sort of personal circumstance identification really necessary for enjoyment?

xp I know, I was just teasing.

idk i mean this makes it sound like im trying to emphasize how unlike her i really am which isn't the point, i am not a self hating hipster or something, i like craft beer & watching Girls, but i feel like what i'm trying to say is it might help if people took a step back & realized that the world doesn't begin & end w/ lena dunham & its kinda just OK that shes a flawed & probably has subconscious or semi-conscious #whitepplissues like many of the people i guarantee ALL of us in this thread have observed at one time or another throughout our lives

what would kelsey grammar tweet if he had twitter

@someactorhesworkedwtih you're delightful!

@someliberalactor let's agree to disagree

lol

does anyone find that picture Roz posted unfortunate?
― Iago Galdston, Monday, October 15, 2012 3:04 PM (19 minutes ago)

hmmm, i guess everyone is cool with it

that particular tweet/picture was already mentioned/discussed early on in the thread

i mean i think girls is better than frasier

whoa whoa lets not get ahead of oursevlers here

xxxpost college i went to was 50% black / 40% white and self-segregation was a pretty big issue on campus. it fulfills our proud white, liberal undergrad heritage to say lena dunham should follow the grand tenets of Feminist Theory 201 and include minorities, but what's that going to change? we're attacking a symptom and ignoring the problem. "why aren't people of different races more integrated?" "because a TV show on HBO excludes minorities." so if she did include minorities that'd be what, a more pleasing fantasy i guess?

all shows are fantasies we watch because we find them pleasing

"lena dunham, we demand you lie to us better!"

xxp funny, i don't see any discussion of that picture of her in "goth/fundamentalist" garb except for Roz who posted it...but i'm just skimming so maybe it is covered elsewhere

i mean i knew some groups that WERE more integrated, i dont think they're NOT there

this all reminds me though of a think nabisco posted or wrote about once when discussing that guy who got the appearance of glasses tattooed on his face, like, how can someone appear on a social level to be so similar to my milieu while at the same time clearly having an outlook on life that is completely alien to mine, where they would tattoo glasses to their face? (i'm paraphrasing)

i think what i'm trying to get at is that at its core, the integration idea involves the recognition that people who are "unlike me" are often a lot more like you than people who are "like you" in superficial ways, and i think i just dont see lena dunham as being THAT much like me

i would totally like to meet soshana, though

John Mahoney should be a creeper editor from the Cheever era next season.

frasier / girls crossover needs to happen

Niles and Hannah competing for the same job/man.

do we all have to stand up and make it clear that we Disapprove of that photo

I Disapprove of Lena Dunham's Photograph and Tweet

Yes. I disapprove of that photo and tweet as well.

Girls is still a good show though.

xxxpost college i went to was 50% black / 40% white and self-segregation was a pretty big issue on campus. it fulfills our proud white, liberal undergrad heritage to say lena dunham should follow the grand tenets of Feminist Theory 201 and include minorities, but what's that going to change? we're attacking a symptom and ignoring the problem. "why aren't people of different races more integrated?" "because a TV show on HBO excludes minorities." so if she did include minorities that'd be what, a more pleasing fantasy i guess?

― Spectrum, Monday, October 15, 2012 3:28 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is a crazy strawman

Wasnt mlk's letter from a birmingham jail about this xxp

since I posted it earlier... that goth/fundie picture was the moment where I just lost it with her, especially when she gave a total non-apology after she was called out for it. In fact, the gist of her apology was pretty much, "sorry bad timing" (the tweet was posted around the same time as the Oak Creek shooting). Which... AGAIN, well done for not only equating all Muslim women who wear veils as "fundamentalists" but also confusing Sikhs with Muslims. UGH.

I was fine with Girls being all white characters, because I don't think minorities should be included just for the sake of it, and it seems kind of accurate anyway that they all just happened to be a bunch of white girls. But LD's attitude towards minorities outside of her work is just massively troubling.

I'm a big Hitchcock fan but etc etc

waiting for her to make spike lee's radar

maybe she'll get an unflattering cameo out of it like QT in Girl 6

ta-nehisi coates wrote something a while back about how he loves watching movies from the 30s and 40s but occasionally he starts wondering how many of the ppl he's watching were complete racists.

if i didn't bring up the veil tweet earlier i meant to

that and the non-apologies and the japan thing all go some way beyond even what i expect from self-entitled white people up their own privilege

is lena dunham the JOHN HUGHES of our generation??

― 乒乓, Monday, October 15, 2012 12:09 PM (54 minutes ago) Bookmark

Could explain the "haha Long Duk Dong jokes are so FUNNY" tone of that Japan essay of hers.

http://www.sundancechannel.com/sunfiltered/2012/10/iconoclasts-funny-people-judd-apatow-lena-dunham/