C/D LENA DUNHAM (THE DEFINITIVE POLL)

i think it may play a part, but i think bringing sexism into a conversation about lena dunham is best utilized when something sexist has been said. i think vaguely dismissing all critiques as being sexist is non-productive. deal w/ the argument being made, not the one you think is covert. xp

No wunderkind goes unchallenged.

What better artifact of the mid-2000s Zeitgeist will we have than Entourage (other than Hostel Part II, maybe)?

palin was definitely treated with a lot more contempt and hostility pre-election than bush was pre-election.

I agree with croupier on all this, though I also think that Girls is as if Mark Wahlberg wrote, directed, and starred in Entourage, rather than just producing and basing the premise on his bio.

(Or if Adrian Grenier wrote/directed/starred.)

Yeah, and that's the other thing I was going to say, is that I think a lot of the ire has to be attributed to the *privileged prodigy* thing. Moreso because I think she presents her character as kind of lazy, as though she just rolled out of bed and got show and book deals in her pjs. Which I'm sure is partly artifice. I think I said upthread that part of where I think her talent lies is in doing that thing where you make it seem like there's no artifice in your art, like you're just kind of transcribing what happened, which is actually very artful.

mordy, i'm scrolling around trying to figure out where you got on this "don't dismiss me a sexist, it's not productive" self-pity tip

i just think that if you want to talk about sexism re dunham you should have specific examples of things people have said + done that you consider sexist. i think you're being very vague and i don't know to what end. it seems like maybe a cheap way out of dealing w/ specific criticisms people have of dunham's material.

i think you're paranoid

it's almost like sexism can't be unconscious or structural

jesus wth is going on with ilx today

seriously i haven't dismissed a single criticism of the show, simply noted that a lot of the bile sent her way ignores the similarities she shares with other writer/director/stars

how about wes anderson, people shit on that guy all the time.

really not going to play the "hey women get a lot of shit" "hey, i shit on plenty of men!" game

Alright, really was trying not to come down off the ropes on this one, but honestly what are you actually adding to this thread? You made a general point, which was valid, but not apparently in reference to any particular post, just sort of "I feel like", then you accuse Mordy of being self-pitying and paranoid, which I really am not seeing in his posts tbh, and now you're just playing "I am better at seeing the sexism in society than everyone else."

xpost not trying to play a game here, obviously sexism still exists ... it's been what, a handful of decades since women were deemeed sentient beings? just devil's advocate here: wes anderson had the privileged wunderkind thing going on, too, and he got a lot of a crap from the internet grumbling classes.

"i'm not playing a game just playing devil's advocate"

why is it that discussions of sexism and racism etc always get someone playing the devil's advocate? of course, that's what they need, who wants to talk about that difficult stuff anyway

aw geez, it's helpful to take apart what's really going on. it could be 80% jealously 20% sexism, or 80% sexism 20% jealously. doesn't help if you have an axe to grind, though.

Moreso because I think she presents her character as kind of lazy, as though she just rolled out of bed and got show and book deals in her pjs. Which I'm sure is partly artifice. I think I said upthread that part of where I think her talent lies is in doing that thing where you make it seem like there's no artifice in your art, like you're just kind of transcribing what happened, which is actually very artful.

I dunno, it seems like she's really frank that EG Hannah Horvath is not that talented - the skill that Lena Dunham has to capture character details is partly present in how clear it is that Hannah doesn't have it - it's really not a Mary-Sue.

you accuse Mordy of being self-pitying and paranoid, which I really am not seeing in his posts

well he's saying it's unproductive to talk about institutional sexism without bringing up concrete examples, that i'm dismissing his valid criticisms and he doesn't know to what end

well, you're engaged in a dialogue here with other real human beings. if for instance you said that gawker's posts about girls are really creepy + sexist, i don't think anyone on ilx would disagree with you. if you believe that ppl on ilx are being creepy + sexist, it's a good idea i think to say exactly what you're finding sexist? i don't pity myself, or feel particularly paranoid atm, fwiw.

aw geez, it's helpful to take apart what's really going on. it could be 80% jealously 20% sexism, or 80% sexism 20% jealously. doesn't help if you have an axe to grind, though.

it IS helpful to take apart what's going on, but this is a pattern in any discussion of sexism/racism: someone almost immediately says "but hey WHAT IF IT'S NOT, what if it's this thing instead" - and it may well be but the effect is to shut down discussion of sexism/racism. and this is not an accusation of sexism etc - god forbid! i know how men HATE that, just like white people hate it when they think they're being called racists! - but it is highly highly noticeable that people HATE to talk about it and maybe admit that it exists in institutional and structural forms rather than a thing that can be safely othered, like dumb fratboys making jokes about tits or whatever

if you believe that ppl on ilx are being creepy + sexist

yeah see this is what i mean by paranoid, as i've never suggested either

and i am in the anti-LD camp but it's as obvious to me that there's an element of sexism in the extent to which she's been called out for her bullshit (or rather the extent to which men in her field DON'T get called out) as it is that she's a kinda-racist douchebag

if anything i've made more vague suggestions of jealousy than sexism re: ilx on thread.

just fyi da croupier, before you posted about sexism + girls, just above the fold, about 4-5 dunham-stans called ilx creepy + douchy. your comment doesn't exist in a vacuum.

so what not only do i have to defend my claims that institutional sexism exists, i have to defend what other ilx posters write too?

lex otm. It's true that LD is criticised a lot for things that wouldn't even be a thing if she was a man, and a lot of it is a result of her a) making women's experiences a central part of her work and b) being someone who is seen as representing "the women of her generation", by whoever - tv execs, the press, her fans, tv watchers etc. It's not her fault she's been put in that position, but that doesn't make her exempt from criticism either.

I mean, I want to like her. I want to like her so bad. And then she goes and pulls bullshit like this:

http://p.twimg.com/Az5OnfSCYAEZ2zz.png

... and I'm like, yeah fuck you.

about 4-5 dunham-stans called ilx creepy + douchy.

whatever the fuck dunham-stan is, i'm pretty sure i am not one

I never want to visit Dunhamstan, the weather is terrible there.

it IS helpful to take apart what's going on, but this is a pattern in any discussion of sexism/racism: someone almost immediately says "but hey WHAT IF IT'S NOT, what if it's this thing instead" - and it may well be but the effect is to shut down discussion of sexism/racism. and this is not an accusation of sexism etc - god forbid! i know how men HATE that, just like white people hate it when they think they're being called racists! - but it is highly highly noticeable that people HATE to talk about it and maybe admit that it exists in institutional and structural forms rather than a thing that can be safely othered, like dumb fratboys making jokes about tits or whatever

it doesn't shut down the discussion of racism/sexism, at least that's not my intention. whenever a bright young thing becomes successful, famous, and critically acclaimed, there's always a chorus of people grousing about it. i'm a dude so i probably don't have the same feelings about this issue as you do, but i'm not discounting sexism or trying to shut that down, but as with anything in life it's more complex than that... which doesn't mean sexism isn't part of it, but it's part of a bigger picture. should we ignore the whole picture to focus on one point? sometimes. but this is a messageboard conversation where we're debating this woman to stave off boredom, so why limit it? if thread was LENA DUNHAM: FEMINIST PERSPECTIVE ON GENDER ISSUES IN HBO DRAMEDIES, fine, out of place.

one reason that dunham gets called out is because shes so visible, and the reason shes visible is because shes one of not very many women working in this field and mining this territory. the structures that allow her to be presented for criticism, that themselves present her for criticism, are sexist, regardless of whether or not those criticisms are themselves

i think it may play a part, but i think bringing sexism into a conversation about lena dunham is best utilized when something sexist has been said. i think vaguely dismissing all critiques as being sexist is non-productive. deal w/ the argument being made, not the one you think is covert. xp

― Mordy, Monday, October 15, 2012 1:00 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think this is insane, btw -- shes a woman artist making semi-autobiographical art that prominently deals with sexism. you dont "bring sexism" into a conversation about lena dunham; its already there

she's a particularly frustrating (read: "productive" in a discursive sense) public figure in that regard. getting her "right" means saying a bunch of, on a surface level, contradictory things

i don't even WATCH her show!!

Maybe being female makes her white in the NBA, and being mid-20s makes her a short white guy in the NBA, in terms of the amount of attention paid. But it works in her favor as well as against her, because when there's a short white guy in the NBA, you know his name.

only 10 people watched her show but they all posted to ILX about it

lol hurting cmon

what about all those MEN making tv shows, why arent we talking about THEM

i think this is insane, btw -- shes a woman artist making semi-autobiographical art that prominently deals with sexism. you dont "bring sexism" into a conversation about lena dunham; its already there

fine, but if it's already there, and you want to discuss it, you need to discuss it beyond just noting that sexism is relevant to the conversation. saying 'i think people criticize her partially bc of sexism' is very vague and doesn't lend any insight into the discussion. this is especially true, imho, if the artist is themselves dealing w/ the topic. it's like sitting in a lit class and hearing that a particular novel is 'about marxism' or 'about sex.' it doesn't actually develop any dialogue

There is after all no such thing as bad publicity, amirite?

ok

i think if you're going to say dialogue is being stifled you have to prove it

i'm criticizing your post for not adding anything interesting to the discussion on ilx about lena dunham. i don't think you're stifling anything. i just don't think you're doing anything interesting. sorry, that's a very blunt way of putting it, but i think it's true. i think you could write about sexist reception of girls, girls dealing in/against sexist tropes, etc in really interesting ways and i've read lots of interesting articles and blog posts and ilx posts (mostly in the other thread) that did just that. i don't think your post did, tho.

honestly, i think i'm going to hold my opinion until david brooks weighs in on this.

mordy can i ask what "the post" in question is?

ok i guess were all back on topic -- more productive discussion of lena dunham please

she makes me wish quentin tarantino had made a film about being quentin tarantino

like what if pulp fiction was all about the guy who's comfortable screaming "dead *car horn* storage" at mobsters