Symmetry required it: 2012 american general election thread #2

the electoral college only really fucks things up once a century, the senate fucks us every day

oh, please

when in doubt, post James Madison pics

funny how every time we violate the 'terrible' old constitution it never seems to make anything better.

well because we violate it the wrong way, if obama violated the constitution by announcing that he was sending the national guard to go kill all the senators and that there was gonna be no more us senate, it very well make things better

at the very least it's worth a shot

it's hard to express how horrible the founding fathers were and what a terrible document the constitution is

― iatee, Monday, October 8, 2012 5:33 PM (50 minutes ago)

ha srs question is there some good literature that expands on this?

http://reading.kingrat.biz/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/the-communist-manifesto.jpg

ha srs question is there some good literature that expands on this?

DeTocqueville

robert dahl wrote a book called 'how democratic is the american constitution?' that i read during my brief stint as a poli-sci major. i found it unconvincing but the argument is made gracefully enough.

thanks!

ha srs question is there some good literature that expands on this?

Gore Vidal

he said good literature

i love vidal but he was kind of a self-contradicting grouch on this subject.

funny how every time we violate the 'terrible' old constitution it never seems to make anything better.

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, October 8, 2012 10:15 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

we can't violate it very much, that's the problem

would rather read Vidal on Jefferson-Madison than Willentz tbh

i dunno -- wilson, truman, nixon, reagan, and bush don't appear to have much trouble violating it six ways to sunday. xpost

and yet, the senate still exists

i dunno -- wilson, truman, nixon, reagan, and bush don't appear to have much trouble violating it six ways to sunday. xpost

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Monday, October 8, 2012 10:50 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well then we get into the whole thing of did they really violate it if the Supreme Court says they didn't and everyone will act like they're constitutional scholars.

e.g. FDR's commerce clause regulations are pretty debatable w/r/t constitutionality, but I think most of us in here would agree they're pretty awesome. So if you want an example of "good violations" I'd go with those.

I think most liberals express disgust over Wilson's conduct of WWI

Good thread: Woodrow Wilson - Classic or Dud?

FDR's commerce clause regulations are pretty debatable w/r/t constitutionality, but I think most of us in here would agree they're pretty awesome. So if you want an example of "good violations" I'd go with those.

fair point. tbh i take a pretty broad, henry clay-ish view on the whole 'does the constitution allow you to do X in order to promote the general welfare' thing, so i'm fine with all that stuff. but i do think there's a difference between stuff the constitution leaves vague and stuff it's very clear about, like the president's war powers.

I'm not that fond of the National Recovery Act and glad it was found unconstitutional tbh

as in: I'm glad it was sacrificed for the sake of FDR's larger war on reactionary justices.

it's not about if you're fine w/ that stuff, it's about whether the constitution is inherently flexible enough w/ that stuff, and it isn't. and it's near impossible to amend.

xp

yeah, the NIRA was terrible -- i don't think anyone would defend it at this point.

walter karp has an extremely harsh critique of the new deal from a left-jeffersonian perspective in 'indispensable enemies.'

We've talked about Karp, J.D. In 2004 or so he held sway over me. I tried to explain his idea of "collusion" to a party hack then and he acted like I'd insulted his mom.

it's a fantastic book although dated in many respects and frustratingly lacking in footnotes or references -- reading it today, when virtually no one talks about "party machines" or "bosses" anymore, is kind of a surreal experience.

karp died much, much too young -- i reread his essays and 'the politics of war' every couple of years. he reads like someone crossed greenwald at his rare best with someone like henry adams. it's astonishing that he isn't better-known.

Well, I don't know about the Adams comparison. The hysteria at which Karp pitched his most eloquent writing is also his worst quality.

Nate Silver ‏@fivethirtyeight
So the Pew poll really is a huge data point for Romney. But his polling today was pretty mediocre without it.

Nate Silver ‏@fivethirtyeight
How much difference did the Pew poll make? We had Romney win % rising to 24.4% from 21.6% today. Without Pew, he'd have made no gain at all.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2012/10/pew-poll-shows-post-debate-enthusiasm.html

i should probably read more adams before i make the comparison -- maybe vidal is a better reference point.

A calm and reasoned appraisal of the PEW poll:

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/10/did-obama-just-throw-the-entire-election-away.html

I have said this 100 times on this thread but I have no idea how this guy remains a tier 1 political blogger

feel like in a more just compassionate society someone would get andrew some help

or teach him about statistics

jesus christ that post

Even though I find the PEW poll a little unsettling, the Sullivan post made me laugh.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m97ho5PqNx1r4iysa.gif

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/284073_10151208236928588_915297167_n.jpg

Bristol is the white swan and Sarah is the black swan?

haha otm!

were they always that orange? have they started a jersey shore phase?

btw in all seriousness its nuts how ripped sarah is

I have been a sully reader bc of non politics links lately, but now I'm just like...this motherfucker went to Harvard?

oh all the idiots i have known who went to harvard

http://letspout.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/george-bush-harvard-mba1243831797.jpg?w=500

well tbf it was harvard *grad* school

the same one that bill o'reilly went to

sry, only Harvard ppl I know are either smarty pants ppl I went to HS with or TFA über achiever types

I have a v limited frame of reference tho