are you an atheist?

you're right! sorry. but i think i kinda like my mis-quote. maybe someone else said something similar because that was floating around in my head.

the baby is being drown, but eh whatever there's just gonna be more water coming in so let's not try to plug that hole. sorry, just don't get this way of thinking about things.

the 20th centuries attempts to do so were pretty disastrous and counter-productive not to mention ham-fisted and overly authoritarian.

shakey you obviously don't agree that communism et al... are religions but where do you come down on things like say scientology, mormonism?

maybe let's phrase it the other way: what about atheism prevents it from falling into the same traps/problems/totalitarianisms? That it's "right"? That it's based on "science"? That it's "self-critical"?

it's not about "getting rid of religion" so much as not being content to sit on the sidelines and watch religous people constantly and horribly fuck things up for everyone.

capitalism, communism, fascism, objectivism etc

so none of these should be restrained or challenged either?

but it objects to those things being administered in a secular setting.

I cannot recall if it was Naipaul but some Islamophobe once sneered that since alms-giving is one of the pillars of that faith, they always make sure to have lots of poor ppl.

fight the power, Granny Dainger.

don't be jaded and condescending. that's my next thing to get rid of after religion.

maybe after that u can get rid of humans

so none of these should be restrained or challenged either?

I'm saying their demonstrably worse and should be challenged first

i kinda like my mis-quote. maybe someone else said something similar because that was floating around in my head.

There's this Ghandi quote:

"The message of Jesus, as I understand it, is contained in his Sermon on the Mount unadulterated and taken as a whole. I can tell you that in my humble opinion, much of what passes as Christianity is a negation of the Sermon on the Mount."

http://books.google.com/books?id=dRQcKsx-YgQC&lpg=PA106&ots=3anT7ikKXQ&dq=gandhi%20sermon%20on%20the%20mount&pg=PA107#v=onepage&q=gandhi%20sermon%20on%20the%20mount&f=false

where do you come down on things like say scientology, mormonism?

these are both obviously religions

scientology less obviously. iirc they weren't even sure they wanted to be a religion instead of a corporation, but l ron wanted the tax exemption

maybe after that u can get rid of humans

????

the scientologists i've spoken to pretty much deny that they are a religion -- that they're fully compatible with all faiths.

they weren't even sure they wanted to be a religion instead of a corporation, but l ron wanted the tax exemption

this is true but the longer the endure, the more like other religions they become. a money-grubbing, bizarre religion still.

that they're fully compatible with all faiths.

Buddhists say this too btw

well should buddhism be thought of as a religion any more than scientology then?

don't be jaded and condescending. that's my next thing to get rid of after religion.

http://www.corliss-lamont.org/hsmny/TPB-John_Lennon_Imagine_Memorial.jpg

the buddha was pretty adamant about not being a "god" or anything like that. he was interested in method.

so none of these should be restrained or challenged either?

I'm saying their demonstrably worse and should be challenged first

Fair enough, though I think they all can be challenged simultaneously.

meditation = auditing, I guess, if we're following these similarities

It's a bit of a shibboleth for the religious to feel that w/o the restraints of an explictly revealed morality, atheists in power will devolve into monstrous Maoists or nihilistic solipsists or fatuous materialist pigs or get into eugenics or whatnot.

it's not hard to imagine tho that after the atheists 'get rid of' religion they might have some other ppl they want to get rid of too.

eh I don't think religion's restrained any of those impulses in our leaders, atheists or otherwise

"but the longer the endure, the more like other religions they become"
this can't be the qualifier since capitalism's been around for as long as scientology (and you could argue capitalism is the root ideology on which scientology was grafted the same as christianity is to mormonism)

religion is a person?

I personally feel that ppl manage to get pretty despicable even when religious but at least the tradition of 'our better angels' has an often good effect of society that might be lost in an atheist one though I think for a society to actually become atheist 'organically' they'd have to have pretty extensive literature and arts that might serve much the same function.

ideology purges tend to involve the people who ascribe to those ideologies.

it's not just a question of duration - it's the way they're set up and how they operate. they have a liturgy, a central text, a mythic leader figure, institutionalized practices, etc. and the longer they stick around the more those things become central to the practice. it's all these things in combination. (also it's kind of lol to bring up Scientologists arguing that it's not a religion - they sing a different tune when it comes to the feds, or when they feel persecuted)

xp

well then your honor i'd like to state for the record i am against getting rid of any people due to their ideologies.

but hey thanks for ascribing mass murder intentions to me, that's swell

ideology purges tend to involve the people who ascribe to those ideologies.

"You're doing our ism wrong!"

I am not in favor of purges though I sometimes wish the influence of churches was less than it is and that they paid taxes when they decided to get political.

how do you intend to eliminate religion? xp

so mao is somehow less mythic and his little red books less inspiring than l.ron?

I also wish relgious ppl would stop whining about persecution when secular society points out the fringier lunacy of some of their positions

if you seriously cannot imagine a way of "getting rid of religion" (a phrase which I've never seriously used...esp not if eg Buddhism is a religion) that doesn't involve mass murder, you have a very limited imagination

I can imagine other ways, but they involve forcible re-education, penalties for teaching religion to children, etc.

so mao is somehow less mythic and his little red books less inspiring than l.ron?

maoism had no ideology beyond absolute fealty to Mao. this is quite different.

Moaism isn't religion just like scientology isn't religion just like Judaism isn't a religion just like Buddhism isn't a religion. 'Religion' is just a construct used since the Enlightenment to compare things that are as dissimilar as they are similar. It's such a silly argument to have.

I can imagine other ways, but they involve forcible re-education, penalties for teaching religion to children, etc.

think bottom up, not top down and long term, not within a generation. The world has been turning less and less religious and AFAIK it hasn't been due to mass murder, forcible re-education, etc.

The world has been turning less and less religious

lol America is not the world

take out China and the former USSR (both countries that used policies of genocide + reeducation to eliminate religion) and i'm not sure there's any trend towards the world being less religious

Europe, America, Canada all becoming less religious means the world as a whole has. lol?

Ha, what constitutes more or less religious?

"maoism had no ideology beyond absolute fealty to Mao. this is quite different."
1. absolute fealty strikes me as about as pure an ideology as you could get but
2. purges and great leap forwards and treatises on dialectics don't strike you as pointing to some grander ideology at work?

i'm not sure there's any trend towards the world being less religious

there is

I cut down on smiting the infidels; only six dead this week.