Feminist Theory & "Women's Issues" Discussion Thread: All Gender Identities Are Encouraged To Participate

I wasn't breastfed, and I have severe emotional trauma

qe frikkin d

spitballin here but i think at least some of the stigma was not boob-related, and more a "why aren't you at home right now" type situation

nope, it's boob-related, and in fact people (usually catholic immigrants) have told my wife she shouldn't be breastfeeding in public.

btw there also used to be, at one time, a separate upper-middle-class/upper-class stigma attached to breastfeeding at all -- which I think was a combination of "if you're wealthy you get a wet nurse" and "why should a delicate upper class lady do something as vulgar as that" combined with, later, "science has given us this more perfect baby food so why breastfeed?"

I ended up dumping a lot of stats and stuff on the other thread, but yes, that came up a lot in my reading, negative associations with showing breast in public seemed strong partic in low-income communities. Breasts have been so sexualized that there seems to be a prominent strain of reasoning that they are ONLY sexual and breastfeeding is actually kind of weird and inappropriate.

I mean even to do at home! Like it has worked backwards and first shamed it in the public eye but then extended that even further to say that's it's gross, just generally.

It's interesting how being a dad changes that too -- like I remember in the first few months of K's life I probably saw at least several other women's breasts while they were breastfeeding (at parent meetups, etc.) and it just wouldn't even register with me that much (perhaps in part because I was in such a new dad exhausted stupor). Some women we were around just seemed to not care much themselves about feeding their babies in front of men, to the point that I remember on one occasion it took me a minute to take the hint that I should leave the room so a woman could breastfeed.

That said, I am curious if H agrees with me about the article, as she's the one actually staying home, breastfeeding, making purees from scratch, etc.

― look at this quarterstaff (Hurting 2), Wednesday, September 12, 2012 6:38 PM (Yesterday)

Haha no offense but this is a GOOD FUCKING QUESTION

I mean thank you for having the self-awareness to ponder the leche factory in the relationship

Too bad we can't just feed babies jizz eh? I mean, it would be equitable.

I am going to regret typing that.

Ew!!!

In seriousness, I have commented to my wife that I would totally willingly have temporary breasts for feeding purposes as long as I could deflate them when not in use and no one besides her would know about them.

xp

don't worry, there is a tribe for you http://lrivera0327.tripod.com/

I was just thinking of the Mr. Natural comic.

I really do get pissed that the whole child-growing/-feeding process is so unilaterally on women. not really convinced I could ever find a man who does housework, childcare, etc, equitably, to make up for it either. Sounds like sour grapes but since we all appear to be making wild anecdata-based inferences about the opposite gender in this thread then I'm just going to be real about it. I would really like to have kids someday but I'll have to get better at not getting mad about equity issues (because some of them just can't be controlled! like being pregnant!). I just don't think I'm good at being in a relationship that's any more involved than have sex + light entertainment. BABIES!!!!

IDK partly you are hearing divorce meltdown in that post, grains of NaCl apply
But partly this shit has always made me mad, mad, mad
Even in 'progressive' 'relationships' Moms seem to be doing all the child-chasing

I have several coworkers who either work from home a couple days a week or closer to full time and watch their kids.

I mean, male coworkers

well I can tell you that in my experience, part of the problem is that it becomes sort of reflexive. We made the decision that I would work (I earn a higher salary) and she'd take leave to be home with the baby. Beyond just not wanting to leave a tiny baby with a stranger, the cost is so high that it almost wouldn't make sense to do it.

But once she does that, she does kind of become the primary caretaker, and then that builds on itself -- she starts to know better about how to do all kinds of things with the baby than I do, and, I think to be fair, also comes to feel more like it's her thing and she knows better. And also the baby comes to know her better. So when I'm home I'm absolutely chasing the baby and playing with her and changing tons of diapers and feeding and giving baths and so forth, but there's still a certain sense in which, for example, given that I might only get to take the baby for a walk once a week, I don't have a kind of automatic list in my head of everything I need to throw into the stroller and diaper bag, so I'm moving slowly, asking her questions, etc.

Also, something I think it's hard to understand until you have kids - the baby comes to see stay-at-home mom as the #1 comfort provider with dad as distant #2. There have been so many times when I've gotten up in the middle of the night to try to calm the crying baby and I have been practically PRAYING that it would work so that my exhausted wife could keep sleeping, but it winds up with her getting up, because the person whose boob feeds her and who is with her more of the time is just going to be 10x more comforting than me. I would imagine that this dynamic is somewhat different with stay-home dads -- I can't imagine that it's just some pure biological override.

For what it's worth, I did take a lower hours, lower paying job so that I could at least be with the baby all weekend every weekend and see her mornings. But in my field that means like 50-55 hour workweeks instead of 80.

Even in 'progressive' 'relationships' Moms seem to be doing all the child-chasing

― ms fotheringham (Crabbits), Wednesday, September 12, 2012 9:30 PM (42 minutes ago)

yeah this is otm and i can't get over it. in addition to never wanting to carry a human inside of me this is most of why i will never do it. i don't want to start hating a guy for doing it to me. i am too sleepy to really read the article but i am always cringing when i read about all these natural mom trends & just feel kind of angry about it generally

i don't want to start hating a guy for doing it to me.

for real

being the sole breadwinner all of the sudden and working long hours under that pressure and THEN doing relief baby shifts in your spare time isn't exactly cake either, just sayin

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/26/health/kerner-stay-home-dads-sexy/index.html

i don't want to start hating a guy for doing it to me.

It is all in the partnership and finding one that fits. No way did I even consider having a baby with my last two exes. My last two marriages were so intolerable because I worked 60 hours a week. My exes worked 40. I came home and did all the cooking and cleaning, grocery shopping, laundry. I was a homeowner with a yard in my 2nd marriage so added yard work to the list. I refused to mow and the ex would whine and bitch about a total of 150 square feet that only needed it every now and then. Fuck if I was going to do that too.

If I could have just worked an office job 40 hours a week, come home and have everything else done for me, that would have been pretty damn blissful and I was very happy doing this when I was single. Instead I was nailing down a roof and tree trimming on weekends. Things that had to be done and I liked doing but I had interests and projects and 48 hours of free time a week. The fact that I was living with an unappreciative lazy ass (twice) who never remembered my birthday or got me a decent Christmas gift...that shit would have gone far.

I am now married with a baby and no longer work at an office. I feel there is a balance of job duties now as well. My husband's work is extremely labor intensive. I feel we both work hard. I like housework and mom work. My life is pure misery for anyone who doesn't like housework or raising a child. I do breastfeed, just seems easier to do, no messing with sanitizing bottles or measuring out formula and cheaper.

I have friends who work 40-60 hours a week and have lil babies. They wish they could spend more time with their kids. Both could but they would have to sacrifice shopping trips, leather purses, shoes etc... We travel for work so our baby doesn't have a decked out nursery or anything like a nursery. She has what she needs.

being the sole breadwinner all of the sudden and working long hours under that pressure and THEN doing relief baby shifts in your spare time isn't exactly cake either, just sayin

― look at this quarterstaff (Hurting 2),

congrats but it isn't all about easy/hard. it's that a lot of other things that affect women negatively come out of the women = moms, men = making $$$ thing

I feel like there's a bad feedback loop, too, when one spouse is the primary or sole income and the other has a lot more time with the kid. I've always been very skeptical of critics of single-parent households (where the parent is the mother) who claim that the kids are missing the things a father is supposed to provide.

If they're referring to the traditional stay-at-home mom, working dad model... well, those things are *all* a dad really has the time to provide. Having a male role model who is at work all the time and seems like the "nice" guy to mom's always-around disciplinarian, and does what, teaches his son how to play sports and glares at his daughter's dates?

I like to think that my relationship to my daughter consists of much more than a paycheck.

More than a paycheck and date glaring, I should say.

http://www.askmoxie.org/2012/09/free-but-not-cheap.html

All the stuff that has to be done for kids, though, those things are jobs. Changing diapers, researching carseats, driving to soccer practice, washing clothes, catching vomit with your hand, putting to bed, filling out forms, searching out a replacement wubbie on the internet, making lunches, making dinner, making breakfast, making snacks. Many of those tasks are not that brain-intensive, and are not valued highly, across all societies.

Good article, even better comments section!

I think women and men have internalized the idea that women = primary babycare giver to a greater extent than they often realize.

Just as an example, ask yourself honestly, if you were going to have a baby and go back to work, and hire a nanny, would you be equally open to hiring a male nanny? Would there honestly be no hesitation on your part based on the fact of his maleness? I realize this is a somewhat skewed hypo because I've never even met or heard of a male nanny. But these things are self-reinforcing too, e.g. men who work around kids are viewed with more suspicion, by women as much as men.

being the sole breadwinner all of the sudden and working long hours under that pressure and THEN doing relief baby shifts in your spare time isn't exactly cake either, just sayin

― look at this quarterstaff (Hurting 2),

congrats but it isn't all about easy/hard. it's that a lot of other things that affect women negatively come out of the women = moms, men = making $$$ thing

― horribl ecreature (harbl), Thursday, September 13, 2012 7:06 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Honestly I don't think you're entitled to give me a smarmy "congrats" here, because you're getting het up about a hypothetical that is not your life, and that you can still opt out of, while I am actually living this.

I will refer you to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x81M3g3zjXc

men who work around kids are viewed with more suspicion, by women as much as men

i think no matter which work or lifestyle situation, people are more likely to interpret male behaviour in terms of sexuality, and people are more likely to suspect men of (for want of a better term) sexual perversion than they are to suspect women.

Well, it's more that the relief shifts are your solo parenting time, whereas the rest of parenting time is either the kid's mom or a combination of both of you. So dad solo is "relief parenting" and not just your solo parenting time. It's kind of limiting for the dad and the kid.

x-post to Hurting

there are male nannies, I know a couple. (they are called "mannies" btw lol)

altho yeah male caregivers are absolutely suspect as sexual predators, and are often barred from roles in which they might have the opportunity to abuse/molest children/infants (ie, male workers not being allowed to change diapers when working at Head Start, for ex)

its hard being a man

it's hard

period

raising kids that is

being a mom (in most cases) > being a dad (assuming you actually take responsibility and are not a complete dick) > being a childless woman or man

Well, it's more that the relief shifts are your solo parenting time, whereas the rest of parenting time is either the kid's mom or a combination of both of you. So dad solo is "relief parenting" and not just your solo parenting time. It's kind of limiting for the dad and the kid.

x-post to Hurting

― ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Thursday, September 13, 2012 12:16 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I agree with this. But without drastic changes in the structure of work/employment in this country (which I guess some minority of people have thanks to work from home jobs, freelance work, etc.) I don't see how to change it.

both parents take lesser-paying jobs with more flexible hours? sounds good in theory, probably not as possible in practice.

Right. For one thing, it's very unlikely that two people will be able to suddenly, simultaneously find work that pays them, idk, 60% of the money for 60% of the time.

There is no such thing as relief parenting, in my opinion, unless you mean a sitter and that is relief but not parenting.

"relief parenting" is like calling "babysitting" - it's your kid, you are parenting

i've been fortunate in my freelance work of late that they allowed me to have days off occasionally or come in to work late when the nanny's schedule was in conflict with our work schedules. anyway my wife and i work about the same amount of hours and she's the one who is still feeding our little man at night since we're cosleeping. it's been far tougher for her than for me, since i don't have a 15 month old pawing at me at 4 AM. my mornings now that i'm off work consist of playing in the living room with him, making him breakfast, taking him on walks, teaching him words, reading with him. i think it's fantastic! it shifts things. it's also made us want to move to a cheaper city soon so we don't have to devote ourselves to insane schedules in order to merely have a decent place. we'd like to work normal hours and have a nice place for him.

xp -- phrase was used in a tongue-in-cheek manner, but thanks for the correction guys, I was really not aware of my role in my own daughter's life

er I guess that was also in reference to mh's post, sorry for overly defensive post, touchy subject

to backtrack a little, what I was really trying to get at was the way the baby spending the vast majority of time with mom impacts parenting. For example, multiple times a week K has screaming fits where nothing I can do will calm her down, but when mom finally comes over she stops immediately. This was something I didn't understand prior to being a parent, when I assumed it would always be like "Ok now my turn to get up, now your turn to get up." Sometimes this works, but sometimes it just does not, because K is more bonded to her mom than she is to me by virtue of time together and breasfeeding.

fathers are terrible parents & terrible ppl in general