Canadian Politics Thread

Seriously, is that constitutional?

"allophones"?!

first/home language neither French nor English

People whose first language is neither French nor English; thought it was the common term?

xpost

My French is rusty enough that I had to refer to Google Translate several times (or else I'm overrating how good it ever was):

http://www.lapresse.ca/debats/chroniques/vincent-marissal/201208/21/01-4567058-planchers-flottants.php

Addresses the question of constitutionality (answer: no):
Cette loi de Mme Marois, si elle est adoptée, s'en va directement à la Cour suprême, qui, indubitablement, la déclarera illégale en vertu de l'article 3 de la Charte (Tout citoyen canadien a le droit de vote et est admissible aux élections législatives fédérales ou provinciales), article qui n'est pas assujetti à la clause dérogatoire

Correct me if I'm wrong but Rene levesque was never a signator to the constitution act of '82. (in reply to EveningStar)

That does not make Quebec exempt from it.

It was never a legal necessity for every single province to sign. It was, however, perceived as an insult and sign of alienation by Quebecers, that the federal government and other provinces passed the Constitution Act without Quebec's signature. While I would actually agree that it would have been a good idea to wait until a Quebec government was willing to sign on, this does not invalidate the Constitution Act or Charter or exempt Quebec from it.

I'm guessing that Marois's strategy, in the event that the PQ wins, is going to be to propose something blatantly unconstitutional, have it go to the Supreme Court, and then declare something along the lines of "Aha! Quebec's aspirations are being suppressed because of this oppressive consitution we never signed on to! Yet again we see that Quebec and Canada are incompatible!"

xps

The whole thing to me is not actually a language issue but a culture issue - which has been said before, and yes obv language and culture are tied - of course people should be able to manage at a decent working level in French if they're working in a system that functions primarily in French, I mean, no one is going to be translating email and every meeting for you. Hell, go to the provincial dept of health as a regular ol citizen and they will only speak French to you. This is just the way it goes. But if we all had translation devices implanted in our ears, would language still be a political issue? Partly yes, because language and culture are deeply linked via history and meaning, and partly no, because "people are people," deeply linked via humanity, etc etc - yet regardless, culture and the promotion/protection of it still would be an issue. The bigger question, outside of how to make rich people richer, in Quebec today is accepting that cultures merge and change and that's a good thing if balanced representation is maintained. But lol my small-l liberal leanings... conservatives aren't so into that...

Rant part: It's also kind of funny that a lot of what makes Quebec interesting is the ~struggle~ for representation. I'm kind of like Move On!! Grow Up! but I've also gotten kind of used to the atmosphere of struggle and what comes out of that. Old-school artist way and whatever + often a desire to win, to show 'em - it's a weird, interesting, exciting even blend of lefty politics and capitalist desires. Certain people get the accolades in whatever it is they're doing and keep at it; some people don't and keep at it, some move away, get sick of the fight and sick of being poor, whether they're Anglo or Franco. I guess this is part of a rant about what Success means in Quebec (and by extension, Canada.)

Anyway, I feel like none of the parties running in this election speak to or for me, and I'm a pretty engaged citizen.

Yeah I feel pretty alienated in this election. My friend and I both did the CBC vote compass thing the other day and landed squarely in the lower left corner where no parties reside. I joked that we should start our own party. He said we could call it the NDP.

Potential good news in the future for QC voters?: http://www.cbc.ca/thehouse/2012/08/18/ndp-prepares-to-run-in-next-quebec-election/

lol sofatruck

after reading about Mulcair on NDP's direction re: environment and industry, i'm even more skeptical of the NDP as actually upholding values they once claimed at least sort of to have. but hell, maybe that's just politics, eh? always and forever... so much trickiness. hrm.

Mulcair on NDP's direction re: environment and industry

Link?

You'd think the NDP would be smart enough to not jump into provincial politics in Quebec ... oh I forgot, it's the NDP, of course they're not smart enough! They fluke out on a bunch of seats in the federal election (not because of merit but because voters were sick of all the other parties), haven't even had a provincial caucus in nearly 20 years ... maybe they see opportunity with the way parties come and go in Quebec, but I call it overreaching.

i still take this reportage with a dose of salt, of course. and it seems Mulcair is trying to appeal to a broader demographic, but...
http://www2.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=7111773
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/can-mulcairs-new-approach-complete-jack-laytons-revolution/article4492580/

from articles earlier in the summer, when he talked about the environment the focus was on sustainable development and protective measures. but what do those phrases really mean? different things to different powers that be, as we've seen.
xp

yeah i call it overreaching too. i get why they'd want to extend, but at the same time, it seems kind of gimicky at the moment - i'm not altogether sure what a prov NDP would stand for in Quebec. and also, there are enough federal issues for the NDP to focus on right now! i'd say they need to gain strength on that level before doing anything else.

yeah i call it overreaching too

Even though none of the current parties speak to you? Most QC anglophones I know have been expressing a wish that there was a federalist social democratic party, ideally one that is not corrupt.

http://www2.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=7111773

I agree with what Mulcair has to say here, and don't see how it's a change of direction for the NDP at all.

yeah i actually really hate talking politics, but try to pay attention even though it pains me. i don't think i'm alone in this feeling at all. i'm just talking about my impressions and am cool with dialogue, of course. i don't know every party's platform; i know what i know via news and friends who are into politics like it's a sport, which is how i think it's treated by a lot of people, media included. i just can't get into it that way. so anyway, this to say that i suppose i'd over-idealized the NDP in a way - I think a lot of people did and do, which therefore makes me more skeptical of them, funny how that works... i know that Canada's economy is based in resources, esp energy resources, and international interest in those resources, but i looked to the NDP as a party that wanted to change that in the near future, so what i read into that article is that that isn't the case. but articles are articles and don't contain all the info. kinda wish they would on occasion.

whoops, i mean i do know the parties' platforms, just not every detail

The NDP's announcement that they will be wading into Quebec provincial politics brought to mind Mulcair in a pith helmet, pointing at a thicket, declaring: "We're heading into the vipers' nest!" IE: makes me as nervous as it does excited.

and provincially, it's not like we don't have a tonne of parties running: http://electionsquebec.qc.ca/english/provincial/rapeq/political-parties.php though, haha, not exactly all viable choices. if the fed NDP can figure out a way to get a prov NDP going and keep its profile high enough, well, cool - i just see the provincial political and cultural landscape as rather different than the federal one when it comes to representation, so i can see problems with the NDP being successful by the time the next election occurs!
xp

well there's definitely a problem with the current provincial parties - they're all a fucking shit show, none of them rallying to the progressivist consensus that Montreal (for example) reached earlier this summer, at the height of the anti-78 casseroles.

Yeah, I do get your guys' point that this is a very risky move + QC provincial politics involves a lot of sensitive issues that could make things tricky for a federal party. Maybe it is wisest to stay out of it for a little longer.

Robyn: Didn't mean to come off as belligerent/over-argumentative, sorry. I mostly follow via news and surfing the net at work too. I think the NDP does favour diversification of the economy and increased investment in manufacturing. However, I definitely don't think they've ever really been opposed to resource extraction, including oil. As I understand, their concerns are that: i) this sector not be over-subsidized at the expense of others ii) appropriate environmental oversight should be applied and iii) the government should not actively muzzle scientists who are doing environmental research, even if it's not in the industry's interests. So I think Mulcair is actually reaffirming those priorities.

2xpost: Right, I think the issue is that with all those parties, there's not really a left federalist praty (even though there are three left-wing sovereigntist parties).

Most QC anglophones I know have been expressing a wish that there was a federalist social democratic party, ideally one that is not corrupt.

Depends on the QC anglo. Over half the other QC anglos I know live in the West Island, Brossard, Laval. They're suburbanite commuters and de facto federalists, but couldn't give a damn about 78 or anything else. All they care about is their fucking commutes and their condo fees or whatever it is.

Sometimes I think the idea of a "federalist social democratic party" [read left-leaning anglo] is really just another way of saying Plateau Party. All the suburban anglos don't give a fuck. But here in the Plateau we nurse our beers and think about how we're in a jam. There's enough of us that if a party came along that wasn't racist or xenophobic mais quand même était capable de faire que nous les anglophones sentaient accueilli à Montréal et au Québec ... Un bon resultat. Faut dire que es anglophones « plateausard » sont pas si militant pour le droit d'anglais que ceux du West Island. Les partis politiques provinciaux devraient pas avoir peur des anglos du Plateau. En fait, il faut nous mobiliser en tant qu'une source abondante de votes. There are tens of thousands of anglos in the Plateau and environs.

I voted for Amir Khadir or whatever his name is last time. I'm in a different circonscription now and it's the lady with the moustache.

Actually, on second thought, there's another problem among Plateau anglos, the throngs of "just passing through" artists and video game workers and so forth (to leave aside the students, somewhat an unknown quantity). I guess of the tens of thousands of anglos in the Plateau just ready to be mobilized to a non-insulting but left-leaning party, how many of those feel any connection at all to politics here? And for how many is it just outright incomprehensible?

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that the QC anglophones I know are necessarily representative of the anglophone QC population in general.

Coyne on Marois: http://www.montrealgazette.com/opinion/Coyne+Bobbing+weaving+Marois+ducks+issues/7142666/story.html
I tend to agree that this is "the most frankly discriminatory platform of any party leader in this country’s recent history".

From the Coyne piece:

(re: Marois:) but needing to keep the base from straying to the hardline Québec solidaire to her left...

These are NOT the same people. This guy has no idea who QS is. (QS, arguably, have no idea who QS is.)

Every province has its share of rednecks, but in no other province are they given the leadership of major political parties.

Such an Easterner. Obviously unfamiliar with Alberta.

Yeah, I disagreed with the QS line as well. AB has had arguably redneck-ish leaders but I can't imagine the Alberta PCs or Sask Party ever proposing anything that violates basic liberties or minority rights to the extent of some of the things Marois has been talking about, which is what I think his point is. Has the Wildrose leadership ever even proposed anything that discriminatory?

Not to my knowledge, no.

fuck andrew coyne!

Recent polls suggest it's going to be a PQ minority government with CAQ as the official opposition. I can live with that I guess.

or a PQ majority

wasn't the cover of yesterday's lapresse some poll results predicting caq were in the lead?

I don't know about yesterday, but today's La Presse article is about the latest poll indicating that the CAQ is surging and now probably have enough support that they would take a significant number of seats in the assembly. PQ still have the overall lead, but this is why they are now talking about a PQ minority rather than a PQ majority.

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/elections-quebec-2012/201208/27/01-4568731-sondage-le-parti-quebecois-en-terrain-minoritaire.php?utm_categorieinterne=trafficdrivers&utm_contenuinterne=cyberpresse_B9_elections-quebec-2012_1965459_accueil_POS1

Quebec can be pretty unpredictable though, nobody predicted the NDP landslide last federal election. Wouldn't really surprise me that much that the CAQ continues to gain ground and actually forms the next government.

I've decided to vote green, it's not like my vote matters anyway, my riding is pretty much garanteed to go Liberal.

If the polls are reporting a PQ minority it actually means a Liberal minority since "undeclared/don't know" voters will vote Liberal. If the polls are reporting CAQ is surging, they're just dead wrong.

My prediction: Liberals make gains (in spite of it all) + PQ take a loss + CAQ fails spectacularly + Amir Khadir.

Charest has been very, very well-managed lately. His pronouncements have been reasonable and even leaderly.

xxxpost - Yesterday's La Presse showed CAQ in the lead, but it was about Quebec City region, not the whole province.

xp

I know that generally most undecided people end up voting liberal, but outside of Montreal the liberals are too far behind both the pq and caq to make up the ground. The most recent poll for francophone voters has the PQ at 36%, CAQ at 30% and Liberals at 19%. I just don't see how the Liberals can win given those numbers.

ahh k thx

it's a great thing that john james will get out of here. his "plan nord" won't make the province much money and the environment will get hit hard but we all know that. and the law 78... lot of good things happening these days, i expect PQ to win and see more of Aussant and Françoise David. great feel, could have used this 10 years ago.

Our Chris Christie-like mayor's niece. We're jealous that Todd Akin and the Republic convention get all the attention.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/08/29/krista-ford-tweet-dont-dress-like-a-whore_n_1841751.html

ah yes. the stupid apple doesn't fall far from the idiot tree...
what's amazing is miss "don't dress like a whore" plays football in her underwear. but i guess she doesn't really have to worry as she's built like a fucking refrigerator.

can't wait for the leftist federalists to spin this pq victory into something monstrous, morphing into fox news pundits all of a sudden on that one issue.

i just love creativity

Which "one issue" are you talking about?

~60% of people voted for federalist parties. The fact that the PQ only has a minority will keep their more extreme proposals off the table. As soon as anglos/ROC realise this, they are going to be ok.

Reposted from "Montreal" thread and not specifically about this election (although I was idly musing about the theoretical possibility of a PLQ-CAQ coalition):

Seriously, in general, I wish people were more open to the possibilities offered within parliamentarianism. It's so unimaginative that the sitting leader of the party with a plurality of seats always becomes PM/premier and I think it actually undermines parliamentary democracy a little.

"that one issue" : the pq, a sovereignist party, is elected. what sort of question is that.

ah pi j'm'en calisse d'écrire en anglais à soir