Just when you thought it was safe - OK CUPID PART 3: The Return of the WOO!

I know exactly what you mean bg thats how I feel too :(

Haha. Not okc related, but how do I tell the difference between whether someone like me, or just wants attention? Grope them, and gauge the ensuing reaction??

VP, when you find the litmus test for that, please let me know, OK?

I think with regards to the other matter, it's a combination of things at play.

Firstly, that we only name it "animal lust" when we are powerfully attracted to someone who is wrong for us in every way. When we feel powerfully attracted to someone who ticks all the other boxes, we call it "true love" or "head over heels" or something else, because it's appropriate desire. The animal lust is what we call desire which is inappropriate.

But I was actually trying to compare and contrast two slightly different things. I've reread this Lisa Diamond book on sexuality this past weekend and it seemed like it supported her theory that there are two different (though related) mechanisms of desire. That one she called Proceptivity which is mostly internally-driven and hormonal because one is feeling horny (and if it wasn't this person at work triggering it, it would be some attractive person in a shop near me, or a random person on the internet, but I'd still just be externalising something which was originating in me.) And the other is Arousability, which is that process by which becoming intimate with someone and getting to know and trust them and you start to think that they are the most amazing person on earth - and then once you have started thinking "this person is awesome" up pop feelings of desire which are based on being aroused by that person.

Sorry, I should have spelled that out better. I have a bad habit of dropping in jargon I've recently picked up which puts a name to a thing I've been thinking about and noticing for a while, but didn't know there was a name for, and then assuming that everyone else has been reading the same books/blogs/press/etc and knows what I'm talking about.

"i know, it's always like that. and then i just go for it anyway, damn the torpedoes! isn't that how you're supposed to live life?

― messiahwannabe, Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:04 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

No.

― emilys., Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:09 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink"

i mean, i get it, it really does cause problems every now and again and everything. but seriously, i honestly often get the impression so many people on this thread are just so overthinking all this! last "damn the torpedoes" experience - 6 months of hott sex & interesting conversation, 2 weeks of awkwardness and bad vibes, 6 months of overthinking. if i could go back in time i'd do it the same way again, except maybe skip the overthinking part.

please don't be offended by this, if possible! i'm genuinely concerned about the wellbeing of every last one of you guys' love lives

"Other messages have been posted since you last looked... Please review and if you want to change your message, do so before posting."

nope, i still stand by my statement ;)

i mean, it's cool to think about all this interesting stuff as per wcc's post, but i feel like there comes a point where it's sort of "enough thinking, time to do"

indeed. I'm jumping back on the horse as it were. nuff moping. date on Friday. a guy my age! first time in... well let's not go there.

btw is there a chance this thread could be deindexed at all?

Well, y'know, maybe for some of us, "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" has not just resulted in awkwardness, but in situations where we didn't just get emotionally mangled, but in some cases had serious, real-life consequences for us.

I'm not trying to be a harsh on your happy buzz here, but there's "this person won't be perfect for a relationship for me" and there's "this person will put my physical safety in danger, and it will end up with regular trips to the police, and maybe having to file a restraining order."

All of things which have actually happened to me when I've said "damn the torpedoes" so, you know, sometimes there's "overthinking it" and sometimes there's "trying to work out the patterns that get you into these terrible situations so you can avoid them happening again." Sometimes puzzling through this stuff and how it works is actually v v important.

I should stay off this thread. It makes me feel so completely separated from the rest of humanity, just when I should be trying to understand and relate to other humans better.

sorry you've had such bad experiences dating wcc! seriously! i guess i just don't know that many people who regularly get into police-involving situations in their normal dating lives. like if it happens at all it only maybe happens once in a persons lifetime and stuff? surely this shouldn't be something that occurs regularly :/

i just hate to feel like i'm sending out my words of general encouragement and carpe diem and whatnot to everyone here except for you ;_;

or... you think you don't know when stuff happens to people you don't.

You don't know this, you only know what you have been told

Ie that's an assumption on your part

Dude, I'm sure that your encouragement and carpe diem stuff works in like 4/5 of people's cases. But there really are different strokes for different folks.

Maybe my dating choices have been really deeply flawed, maybe there's something damaged about me that attracted really damaged people, this is the stuff I've been examining. This clearly just isn't the place to talk about it.

But there really are different strokes for different folks.

Definitely - what works for A doesnt work for B

Plus even for one person, there are times for doing, times for thinking and times for doing nothing at all.

For what it's woorth, WCC, you seem to at least understand how to separate out the different types of desire on an intellectual level even if you don't feel as if you're quite as successful at putting that knowledge into practice. The proceptivity/arousability thing is exactly what I was trying to get at earlier.

I've dated enough that I feel like I've gotten really good at figuring out who's compatible with me and who isn't. The problem is that, even when I find someone who I'm really compatible with, there are any number of other factors (bad timing, insecurity, commitmentphobia) that ultimately wind up making that person pull away from me. I only ever end the things that aren't working. When it is working, the decision to stay together gets taken out of my hands. The bottom line: a lot of people are fucked up and confused even when the situation they're in is otherwise good.

messiahwannabe, I sympathize with your viewpoint, and I've damned those very same torpedoes for stretches of time, but at the end of the day the wisdom of that maneuver is largely dictated by your own fortitude in the face of torpedo fallout. When you're damning torpedoes with someone who's clearly not completely stable, it's not really such a fun game anymore, and I don't personally have the fortitude for that. And even when there haven't been personality disorders at play, I feel like I run into complications that I don't really wanna have to deal with in a situation where I'm not emotionally involved at all.

It's tough for me, because I feel like I need to "play the game" - aka have an OkCupid profile, even though it's mostly been completely a waste of time with me. The people I've connected with in my life I've kind of happened upon by accident--and in unplanned ways. And they aren't perfect, and had they had a dating profile I may have given it a once-over and never done anything about it. And like Old Lunch, sometimes I've had very strong connections with these people (and they with me), and it's ended for other reasons beyond my control. For some people I don't think emotional connection is important to them. It's extremely important to me. I seem to connect with this certain kind of person who doesn't come around that often, it would seem. I don't know if I'll find them on a dating site.

Meanwhile, I'll keep meeting bozos on OkC that make me want to bash my head into the sidewalk merely because I am a masochist. And I can't seem to go without male attention for two seconds.

Yeah, y'know, there's an extent to which I've been thinking (since having my last serious relationship devastatingly explode in my hands) that my adult life has been way too consumed by romantic entanglements of various kinds. With, like, nothing to show for it but pain, a compromised ability to trust others, and too many of my own needs/wants subsumed in the pursuit of trying to have a harmonious life with people who ultimately didn't give a shit. Several of whom have gone on to have their own little harmonious lives with people who aren't me. And I've thought a lot about how I need to redirect all of that wasted time and energy into my own life pursuits, because, for all of the failed attempts at relationships, I at least have the autonomy now to go my own way and not have to answer to anyone else. And that's a really freeing thought, and it gives me a lot of fuel to pursue things that a lot of people my age might not be in a position to do because they're tied down by their responsibilities to other people.

And then I reactivate my OKC account. Because I'm a stupid.

Don't mean to sound trite or cliched or spam-like or anything, but OKC can work. I'm still dating someone I met on it last November. So far, so good.

This thread is now making me think of Charles Coburn in "The More the Merrier." His catchphrase was "Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead!"

Maybe a WWII housing shortage and single boarders who looked like Joel McCrea would help alleviate some of the problems delineated above.

Meanwhile, I'll keep meeting bozos on OkC that make me want to bash my head into the sidewalk merely because I am a masochist. And I can't seem to go without male attention for two seconds.

story of my gd life :(

I've heard enough ladies trash the dudes they meet from OKC that it kinda explains the number of "two dates and then...let's get serious?" situations I've encountered. Not to toot my own horn, mind. Because it's clear that they're not looking for much more than a warm body in those instances and, I dunno, I'm just a warm body who was more personable and treated them more decently than other warm bodies may have in the past? It's not a situation that's unique to OKC-derived dates, but it's certainly something I've encountered more via OKC than through any other dating sitch.

After long stints on my own, a warm body to cuddle up with can become more and more appealing. I certainly don't instinctively turn them away.

Yeah, but there's a difference between taking advantage of the presence of a warm body and rushing into a relationship with a warm body who you're maybe not all that compatible with.

I have a warm body that I've used for warm body times for over a year now; now I'd like someone whose brain I find really, really hot.

Someone who goes into "let's get serious" town after two dates is an anti-seducer and unfortunately is a result of the other kind of anti-seducer--the insecure commitment-phobe (and perpetual window shopper).

What is an anti-seducer? Dare I ask, because googling brings up a bunch of PUA sites and I don't want to click on them.

It's a chapter from the book "The Art of Seduction" by Robert Greene (PUA types read this book, but it's actually kind of interesting/informative...). I've posted this before on ILX, pretty sure, so apologies if it's a repeat for folks.

'Anti-Seducers come in many shapes and kinds, but almost all of them share a single attribute, the source of their repellence: insecurity. We are all insecure, and we suffer for it. Yet we are able to surmount these feelings at times; a seductive engagement can bring us out of our usual self-absorption, and to the degree that we seduce or are seduced, we feel charged and confident. Anti-Seducers, however, are insecure to such a degree that they cannot be drawn into the seductive process. Their needs, their anxieties, their self-consciousness close them off. They interpret the slightest ambiguity on your part as a slight to their ego; they see the merest hint of withdrawal as a betrayal, and are likely to complain bitterly about it.

It seems easy: Anti-Seducers repel, so be repelled—avoid them. Unfortunately, however, many Anti-Seducers cannot be detected as such at first glance. They are more subtle, and unless you are careful they will ensnare you in a most unsatisfying relationship. You must look for clues to their self-involvement and insecurity: perhaps they are ungenerous, or they argue with unusual tenacity, or are excessively judgmental.

Perhaps they lavish you with undeserved praise, declaring their love before knowing anything about you. Or, most important, they pay no attention to details. Since they cannot see what makes you different, they cannot surprise you with nuanced attention.

It is critical to recognize anti-seductive qualities not only in others but also in ourselves. Almost all of us have one or two of the Anti-Seducer's qualities latent in our character, and to the extent that we can consciously root them out, we become more seductive. A lack of generosity, for instance, need not signal an Anti-Seducer if it is a person's only fault, but an ungenerous person is seldom truly attractive. Seduction implies opening yourself up, even if only for the purposes of deception; being unable to give by spending money usually means being unable to give in general. Stamp ungenerosity out. It is an impediment to power and a gross sin in seduction. It is best to disengage from Anti-Seducers early on, before they sink their needy tentacles into you...'

Ah, thanks for the explanation.

But then again, I read something like that, and I just think "Oh, I give up."

Why, exactly?

More depressing to me is that there a ton of guys out there who are super-conversant with that stuff. The more PUA dudes women encounter, the harder it is to convince those women that you abhor that bullshit. We need a strict ANTI-PUA dating site...but it would probably just get infiltrated by those dudes as some kinda weird tactic.

I don't really like the idea of seduction. It makes me very uncomfortable.

And basically, I am very very insecure when it comes to sex/romance matters, so it feels like that is a giant essay telling the entire world to stay away from me. Like, thanks for that.

This is pretty spot-on wrt what I was talking about, though (even though the jargon kinda drives me up a wall):

Perhaps they lavish you with undeserved praise, declaring their love before knowing anything about you. Or, most important, they pay no attention to details. Since they cannot see what makes you different, they cannot surprise you with nuanced attention.

And that doesn't just mean that they fail to see what's special and different about you. They also put up blinders wrt what's flawed and different about you. This is a lot of why my OKC profile has a lot of "this is my shit, I'm pretty far from being a perfect person, hope you can deal". So many people want to just jump right into things without even parsing potential personality conflicts. Like, you can't even learn to negotiate that territory until you've at least acknowledged it.

WCC, the fact that seduction makes you uncomfortable tells me you're probably of sounder mind about dating than a lot of other people are. Anyone who legit thinks this stuff can be boiled down to a formula creeps me the eff out.

i used to be an anti-seducer but now i'm a seducer (i think...or at least not an anti-seducer). it's weird though because part of me internalized the "no one is going to love you if you can't love yourself" thing and expected dating to start going much much better than it is.

I'm not sure that loving yourself is supposed to make dating better, I think it's supposed to make lyfe better.

i think the less obvious definition of seduction is "getting to actually know you," which is a real thing that happens to real people, sometimes even before they sleep with each other

i mean, seductive things don't always have to be sexual things

"Seduction" as a word just has such overpowering associations with "getting someone to do something they don't really want to do" which is just so NAGL in any context, sexual or otherwise. Just... no.

Yeah, I can't say what's causation and what's correlation, but the times when I've been most successful at dating (in terms of attracting people to me and having a fun & easy time with it, not necc. in terms of being well-suited to long-term settlin' down) have been the times when I was generally pretty satisfied with the direction of my life and not really actively seeking out people to date. Basically, when I had my own shit going on and was satisfied with it. Conversely, I'm massively dissatisfied with most aspects of my life at this point in time and the interest from others has largely dried up. Make of those anecdotes what you will.

oh, ah, that too. i guess i don't really think of seduction that way!
xp

xxpost

I agree. The concept of seduction in my mind is just gross.

I am neither satisfied nor unsatisfied with my life, I'm just kinda bored with it.

I see seduction as that sweet spot between the people who want to jump right into relationships and those who want to jump right into sex. It's getting to know someone for the sheer joy of it, flirting, hinting at possibility (but not hammering it home), indulging in fantasy and playfulness. And either love happens, or sex happens, or things fizzle. But each person enjoys the process.

I hate flirting. It unsettles and confuses the hell out of me. I am clearly an anti-seducer and should just go home.

But each person enjoys the process.

Yeah, that's kinda the crux right there. The idea of seduction tends to dredge up a PUA connotation in my brain anymore, where her enjoyment isn't much of a factor. Hence my squicked-out-ness. It's nice to think that seduction can be a two-way street, though.

WCC, flirting can be as simple as holding your own and maintaining confidence. I think a lot of the more mechanical stuff that people get out of a book is bullshit. I mean, clearly it works for certain people, but those are people that will clearly always be just way, way the eff off my dating radar.

I'm not arguing for one definition or the other, but I definitely think "coercion with a 'gentlemanly' flair" when I hear the word seduction; super gross.

Lots of women like to be seduced. It's not always some creeptastic coercion. Sometimes it is, but that's not being seductive--that's being a bully.

I don't know that you can say "lots of." I think you can say you like it, and I don't, and leave it at that. I hate drawing conclusions about an entire gender based on 2 examples.

I didn't say all women. I said lots. A fair amount? Whatever.

FWIW, I don't think creepiness is inherent in the definition of 'seduction'. I just think the word has taken on more of that taint as a result of the prevalence of the PUA movement.