my mom used to call me Sybil all the time. THANKS MOMS
― Cussing like a bunch of Bukowskis (sunny successor), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:19 (eleven years ago) link
shoemaker makes me want to start a thread of signet book covers from the 80s
― vincent black shadow giallo (Edward III), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:21 (eleven years ago) link
Nicole, have you read any of Debbie Nathan's other books? She has a couple of others that sound interesting to me -- one about her investigation of the SRA paranoia and another about PORNOGRAPHY.
Satan's Silence, a 1995 work which Nathan co-authored with Michael Snedeker, examined and "debunked" the wave of satanic ritual abuse allegations that took place beginning in the 1980s.[9][10] Victor Navasky described the book as the "definitive study" of the subject,[11] and a CounterPunch columnist credited the book as having "exposed and virtually stopped the so-called satanic cult child sex panic".[12] Paul Okami's review of the book in The Journal of Sex Research noted that the book "is not . . . a scientific work", and he had some criticisms of its organization and what Okami saw as misapplication of certain social-science concepts and an overreliance in some parts of the book on feminist and leftist economic theory; nevertheless, Okami judged the book to be "essential reading . . . for its devastating journalistic portrait" and "for its more general analysis of proximate mechanisms by which our society can become vulnerable to patent collective madness."[13]Pornography, published in 2007, is written as a concise "guidebook" on the subject of pornography.[14] A Canadian reviewer described the writing as "frank and cool", and made note of Nathan's assertion that no connection has been established between the use of pornography and criminal behavior, as well as her focus on the "connection between porn and shame" to define pornography.[15]
Pornography, published in 2007, is written as a concise "guidebook" on the subject of pornography.[14] A Canadian reviewer described the writing as "frank and cool", and made note of Nathan's assertion that no connection has been established between the use of pornography and criminal behavior, as well as her focus on the "connection between porn and shame" to define pornography.[15]
― nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:23 (eleven years ago) link
Sunny, that is super fucked up. But it's way worse to be Sybil's mom than it is to be Sybil. Sybil's mom supposedly took many public dumps, had lesbian orgies in the woods with underage girls, and administered punitive enemas to Sybil while she was suspended from the kitchen's light fixture. (It is highly unlikely and completely unconfirmed by multiple firsthand witness interviews with people who knew her personally and intimately). So no harm done in the long run amirite?
EIII please do
who did that art, anyway?
― nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:24 (eleven years ago) link
I haven't taught a single Sybil in 15 years--I don't think I've even known one in my entire life. Like Adolf, it's a name that seems to have fallen out of favor.
― clemenza, Monday, 30 July 2012 14:25 (eleven years ago) link
Tears For Fears, named their album, 'Songs From the Big Chair', after a phrase used in the 1976 movie. In fact the track 'Big Chair' was inspired by 'Sybil' and the fact she felt safe in the big chair in her therapist's office.
― Ward Fowler, Monday, 30 July 2012 14:26 (eleven years ago) link
is there a good precis on any of this stuff available anywhere (relevant wiki entry?), so far this thread is p much elliptically the same as the catholic church thread
― , Blogger (schlump), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:27 (eleven years ago) link
Her real name is Shirley MasonThis is herhttp://i.cdn.turner.com/trutv/trutv.com/graphics/photos/criminal_mind/psychology/multiples/3-3-Sybil-Shirley-K-Mason.jpg
― nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:28 (eleven years ago) link
Dr Cornelia Wilbur is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelia_B._Wilbur
― nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:29 (eleven years ago) link
― clemenza, Monday, July 30, 2012 10:25 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I really like it! I think someone should bring it back.
― (✿◠‿◠) (ENBB), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:29 (eleven years ago) link
Flora Schreiber's NYT obit http://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/04/obituaries/flora-schreiber-70-the-writer-of-sybil-and-of-shoemaker.html
One perspective on Satanic Ritual Abuse http://www.religioustolerance.org/sra.htm/
― nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:30 (eleven years ago) link
ty LLi figure this is maybe also useful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuseif not wrt this then just to keep as a pinned tab on the next library computer you use
― , Blogger (schlump), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:31 (eleven years ago) link
while she was suspended from the kitchen's light fixture.
I feel like light fixtures cannot actually withstand this? I guess it depends.
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:32 (eleven years ago) link
xp - yes, indeed. i can't wait for my friends and family to see my amazon wish list when they buy me birthday presents this year.
here is the most well known of shirley mason's paintings
http://www.hiddenpaintings.com/uploads/Entrapment_s.jpg
― nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:32 (eleven years ago) link
laurel, she was a slight child
I don't think there's a single sum-up but there are a lot of individual books & documentaries that I basically can't resist every time I see one
― steven fucking tyler (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:34 (eleven years ago) link
That's why I wanted to read Debbie Nathan's book. I think it is that book.
― nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:35 (eleven years ago) link
Satan's Silence
I mean who can resist SATAN'S SILENCE?!
i read "sybil exposed" too and it is nuts
― congratulations (n/a), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:36 (eleven years ago) link
http://www.youtube.com/embed/6pdRbfVLO6g
Worst Mother in Film: Now with Laugh Track!
― tokyo rosemary, Monday, 30 July 2012 14:37 (eleven years ago) link
1973 Nervous Breakdown is a far better book but this goes deep into the culture-wide dread that fueled the satanic ritual abuse epidemic
http://ebooks-imgs.connect.com/product/400/000/000/000/000/087/529/400000000000000087529_s4.png
― (REAL NAME) (m coleman), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:37 (eleven years ago) link
Jenkins also wrote a book about cults - Mystics & Messiahs - but it's not that great. he's kind of neo-conservative and middlebrow, a bad combo
― (REAL NAME) (m coleman), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:39 (eleven years ago) link
I used to listen to this dude's comedy albums when I was a Christian, he is a pathetically tragic figure in the whole Satanic Panic era, being mostly a fraud who was exposed by a Christian magazine, Cornerstone.
― Marco YOLO (Phil D.), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:42 (eleven years ago) link
man, "Unsolved Mysteries" and "20/20" were obsessed with satanic panic
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:43 (eleven years ago) link
Warnke's exposure in Cornerstone is one of the all-time great moments in evangelical culture, so amazing
― steven fucking tyler (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:45 (eleven years ago) link
Although I am now more than two decades removed from it, I remain fascinated by the ephemera of evangelical culture. Warnke, Bob Larson, Carman, Mylon LeFevre, DeGarmo & Key, Kerry Livgren's A/D . . . endlessly amazing stuff.
― Marco YOLO (Phil D.), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:49 (eleven years ago) link
Oof that's a good story. I love fallen frauds, esp if they had followers.
I just want to clarify that there were clearly other factors influencing the Satanic panic/MPD mania of the 80s/90s, BUT a major foundation of the argument supporting it came from the research and promotion of Dr Cornelia Wilbur, who started the "repressed sexual childhood memories" aspect that formed the foundation of SRA evidence.
― nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:49 (eleven years ago) link
aero we should start a thread on ILM on CCM music of the 80s/90s. Wonder how many people would participate?
― Marco YOLO (Phil D.), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:51 (eleven years ago) link
I'd be in.
(I remember Warnke clearly. btw...saw him live at least twice. Had already secularized myself by the time Cornerstone blew the lid off his "ministry," though.)
― Johnny Fever, Monday, 30 July 2012 14:53 (eleven years ago) link
I was not a Christian, so I don't know anything about that music at all. Kinda freaks me out tbh.
― nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:54 (eleven years ago) link
I would like a signet paperback covers thread.
― tokyo rosemary, Monday, 30 July 2012 14:55 (eleven years ago) link
My parents used to get all these Christian music mailorder catalogs and I would read them cover-to-cover the same way I would w/ Columbia House & BMG and the one thing that always astounded me was that Petra had a seemingly endless discography and yet I have never, ever heard their name mentioned anywhere other than those catalogs.
― cwkiii, Monday, 30 July 2012 14:57 (eleven years ago) link
Are there any threads about 60s-70s hippie Jesus folk-rock?
― Your sweet bippy is going to hell (WmC), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:59 (eleven years ago) link
My 7th gr math teacher had a daughter who loved Petra! That is the only way I ever heard the name.
― nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 30 July 2012 14:59 (eleven years ago) link
WmC, I think so -- it's a hot commodity among collectors iirc?
― nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 30 July 2012 15:00 (eleven years ago) link
Private labels, small pressings, etc
as is generally known I am the biggest Amy Grant fan on ilx
― steven fucking tyler (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Monday, 30 July 2012 15:00 (eleven years ago) link
Contemporary Christian Music: 70s, 80s, 90s and beyond
― Johnny Fever, Monday, 30 July 2012 15:03 (eleven years ago) link
wow, this is something http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/anton_lavey.htm
― nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 30 July 2012 15:05 (eleven years ago) link
Kinda want to see Amy Grant get in a boxing ring against somebody and see if the the combo of aero's 2 biggest fandoms makes him essplode.
― Your sweet bippy is going to hell (WmC), Monday, 30 July 2012 15:06 (eleven years ago) link
As long as she doesn't fight that dude from Bulgaria in the Olympics bout from Saturday. That guy was fierce.
― Marco YOLO (Phil D.), Monday, 30 July 2012 15:13 (eleven years ago) link
Had no idea Sybil had been debunked!
― pplains, Monday, 30 July 2012 15:14 (eleven years ago) link
My step-mother had all these books. She was an Irish Catholic who had lost a son to crib death. I remember Helter Skelter, The Eyes of Laura Mars, these book covers with slack-jawed children being threatened by some sinister being above the book title. So many Stephen King books…
She made a mean cheese dip, I do give her that.
― pplains, Monday, 30 July 2012 15:17 (eleven years ago) link
I am seriously looking forward to seeing people's "Sybil's been debunked!" reactions!!
― nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 30 July 2012 15:18 (eleven years ago) link
There's even a major point that I will not mention because you will just have to read the book.
― nicest bitch of poster (La Lechera), Monday, 30 July 2012 15:19 (eleven years ago) link
Unless someone injects me with powerful substances and elicits the information from me, that is.
All that's missing from that Anton LaVey thing is a connection to Jack the Ripper and the Knights Templar. They've got everything else.
― tokyo rosemary, Monday, 30 July 2012 15:22 (eleven years ago) link
Right
― (We're Not) The Experimental Jet Set (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 3 November 2022 14:09 (one year ago) link
Sometimes I come across people who say they basically have no memory of their childhood. So maybe they have simply “forgotten,” but more likely they are suppressing something as they themselves would say. How to access that is another question. Of course other people who claim to remember something may be suppressing as well.
― (We're Not) The Experimental Jet Set (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 3 November 2022 14:12 (one year ago) link
This seems like the right thread if I remember some of the earlier discussion (besides which, there's a clip of Sybil in the film): Satan Wants You, a documentary on I saw tonight on Michelle Remembers and the "Satanic panic" of the '80s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y20TgJ_p_c8
It's Canadian, but the clip says it's coming to Tubi in a few months. What a sad and ridiculous story.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 23 August 2023 04:12 (nine months ago) link
Michelle Remembers is so weird to read now, so much of it is like “I’m sorry WHAT” but i guess because it’s written in that naive style of Go Ask Alice that it completely sucked people in and that psychiatrist is very O_o
― werewolves of laudanum (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 23 August 2023 04:31 (nine months ago) link
i’ll def watch this doc!
― werewolves of laudanum (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 23 August 2023 04:32 (nine months ago) link
Felt sorry for his family (ex-wife, daughters) watching this. Some well-known Canadian media people got sucked in too.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 23 August 2023 04:43 (nine months ago) link
I read it for a "Literature and Psychology" class in college ca. 1987. I really can't remember whether we even questioned the authenticity of the story. I think the professor might have just tossed it into the "literature" (fiction) bin with the rest of the works, all of which were unquestionably fiction (e.g., Dostoyevsky's The Double, Anne Tyler's Dinner at the Homesick Restaurant). At any rate, we discussed MPD as a real pathology.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 23 August 2023 05:12 (nine months ago) link
We also read The Fall, which has stuck with me more than any other book from that class.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 23 August 2023 05:20 (nine months ago) link
"satanic ritual abuse" is just a cover-up for christian ritual abuse, which we're not allowed to talk about
― Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 23 August 2023 13:31 (nine months ago) link
Feels like SRA is rearing its horns again with the Qanon/adrenachrome/Wayfair bullshit
― Andy the Grasshopper, Wednesday, 23 August 2023 17:16 (nine months ago) link
That's exactly how the film ends, with Pizzagate and Qanon: it is happening again.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 23 August 2023 17:21 (nine months ago) link
I never heard of this case (probably because it’s Canada) but I was amused by this detail of her alleged story: an 81-day ritual in 1955, that supposedly summoned Satan himself and involved the intervention of Jesus, the Virgin Mary, and Michael the Archangel, who removed the scars received by Smith throughout the year of abuse and blocked memories of the events "until the time was right".
― deep wubs and tribral rhythms (Boring, Maryland), Wednesday, 23 August 2023 17:26 (nine months ago) link
Last specific I'll cite, because I want people to see the film, but part of disproving her story was going back to her school photos in 1955, where she appears way too normal--and seemingly physically fine--for someone going through all this. (And attending school regularly during the window of her abduction.)
― clemenza, Wednesday, 23 August 2023 17:29 (nine months ago) link
that looks awesome, just read up about this. Whatever happened to her? Her psychiatrist/husband is dead now.
― I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Wednesday, 23 August 2023 21:02 (nine months ago) link
She's still alive but declined to be interviewed for the film.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 23 August 2023 21:20 (nine months ago) link
xxp I actually knew a couple punkers who worked at that DC pizza place years ago
And I think there was a video circulating of Ian Svenonius wearing a hooded robe at that pizza parlor, trying to summon Curtis Mayfield's ghost or something like that... might have added to the shooter's suspicions about the place
― Andy the Grasshopper, Wednesday, 23 August 2023 22:30 (nine months ago) link
I had thought the concept of recovered memories was controversial within the research psych community because there was evidence that many of these were false memories?― stank viola (Neanderthal)
― stank viola (Neanderthal)
idk. it's interesting. i didn't think repressed memories were a real thing either until i found out that i had them.
to be clear i wasn't ritually abused by a satanic cult or anything like that. there were just things that it was easier to... not think about for a while. then in my 40s i started dealing with gender stuff and i was like... why has none of this ever come up before?
and then i realized it had. again, we're not talking about anything wild or outrageous. i had friends who were like "oh yeah, i remember you telling me something like that", when in my head i'd told no-one my secret. it was easier to not think about it, to compartmentalize it somewhere out of the way. there was nothing i could do with that information, no useful purpose it could serve.
for some people their past is a rational logical narrative and for me, i've been told so many different things, some of which aren't true, by people i learned to trust that... it's confusing what to believe sometimes. i kind of try to piece things together from fragments of things i remember, and sometimes i put it together wrong, i draw conclusions that aren't correct, i misremember. i guess it's easy to categorize them as "false memories", i'm trying to figure things out and i do it wrong. and then when i do sometimes people will say "see, you're always remembering things wrong", and dismiss everything i remember, but i'm not "always" remembering things wrong. sometimes one person remembers things one way and me and my sibs all remember things in a very different way.
sometimes... one is pressured to believe a narrative that doesn't hold up to scrutiny if you examine it. and that narrative can be satanic ritual abuse, or it can be "perfectly normal child".
― Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, 24 August 2023 01:43 (nine months ago) link
I like your last paragraph a lot there...You should look for this film. I think you would, at the very least, agree that this particular case was fraudulent.
― clemenza, Friday, 25 August 2023 12:18 (nine months ago) link
i haven't seen the film, but from what i've read i have no doubt of that... i guess what i'm interested in is the way that narratives of "satanic" or "occult" abuse are perpetrated by hegemonic institutional forces (in this case mainly christianity) while at the same time genuine instances of abuse perpetrated by these same institutional forces is dismissed as indicative of things like "false memory syndrome". particularly given the tendency christianity has to portray queerness as demonic! i'm thinking here of things like the D&D panic ignited by the disappearance of james dallas egbert iii. his parents hired a pi named william dear to investigate the case... dear says that egbert's disappearance has a lot more to do with his homosexuality than dungeons and dragons...
that said dungeons and dragons is something that does have great resonance with queer people... one of the things parents found most dangerous about dungeons and dragons was the way it encouraged its players to take on alternate personae... it's extremely common for players to use this as a way of exploring sexual or gender identities that would otherwise be taboo. d&d is a tremendously queer game today, and has spawned explicitly queer successors like "thirsty sword lesbians".
one can also see the way something like "false memory syndrome" was created by paul mchugh, the conservative catholic who shut down the gender affirming surgery program at johns hopkins because of his personal beliefs... personal beliefs which then led him to defend vigorously priests accused of the serial sexual assault of children, a crime which was covered up by the ecclesiastical hierarchy...
this sentence from lawrence pazder's wikipedia page stood out to me...
Pazder considered himself to be a devout Catholic.
the archbishop of portland earlier this year issued an edict forbidding teachers in catholic schools in portland from calling trans kids by their names or gendering them correctly... christians call us "groomers" when the actual people abusing children are far more often youth pastors... christianity's long, shameful legacy of child abuse continues, all the while claiming to "protect children".
hail satan. baphomet is goals.
― Kate (rushomancy), Friday, 25 August 2023 13:52 (nine months ago) link
SATAN WANTS YOU (the Michelle Remembers doc) is 100% worth the rental on prime. Debbie Nathan is in it!!Well made and the ending satisfies. When someone besides me watches it we can discuss "baby candles"
― Piggy Lepton (La Lechera), Tuesday, 5 December 2023 23:02 (six months ago) link
Oh thank you thank you will totally watch
― realistic pillow (Jon not Jon), Wednesday, 6 December 2023 05:30 (six months ago) link
I assumed this thread was bumped because of the growing popularity of the multiplicity online subculture! Whenever I see someone talking about their supposed dissociative identity disorder I can’t help but think about my fascination with Sybil when I was a teenager.
― Allen (etaeoe), Thursday, 7 December 2023 20:47 (six months ago) link