Louie (Louis C.K.'s show on FX)

also re: the Heckler bit he specifically wrote her to be inoffensive and just obstructive because the point is how much he overreacts

Or, you might not have found offensive the one that others do, due to some difference of perspective, can't quite put my finger on it.

*ones

of course, but those rape jokes that i've heard have been praised by feminist writers/culture critics.

not saying that bene gesserit is wrong to be offended or that she should quit watching the show btw. that's fair enough. a lot of people were disappointed in that tweet, but i guess where i think he's coming from is understandable if not exactly what I believe.

it's pretty obvious his comment was a response to the incident. to me, there isn't much of a difference. he also apparently used to have a rant up on the front page of his website about why rape jokes are ok, and there's been a dialogue about this going on for awhile, so yes he has access to a lot of intelligent and thoughtful responses that he hasn't spoken to.

i'm not telling you guys to stop watching his show, but his stance on this unequivocally sucks.

of course, but those rape jokes that i've heard have been praised by feminist writers/culture critics.
yeah, this obviously totally proves his jokes are ok and don't hurt people!! get the fuck out of here with this.

no, you're saying that he's not listened to any of the intelligent women who have spoken up about this issue, and i'm saying that (whether he has or hasn't), there have been a number of intelligent women who wrote about this issue and disagree with you on certain levels, including how offensive and hurtful his specific rape jokes are.

feminism isn't some monoculture where we all believe the same things. if certain women give him a pass, it doesn't negate that other people are hurt by his words.

i know, and that's why i said it's fair enough if you are offended and don't want to support him. i'm just saying that your points were 'debatable', i.e. other perspectives are on offer and they're not all chauvinist/patriarchal Tosh-defending "get a sense of humor" horseshit.

also re: the Heckler bit he specifically wrote her to be inoffensive and just obstructive because the point is how much he overreacts

― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Friday, 13 July 2012 21:55 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah. w/o spreading the clusterfuck any further, i really appreciated what kevin wrote elsewhere, making a distinction amid rape jokes to specifically address those which make rape victims the butt of the joke. i have really been struggling with some of the tumblr posts that draw strong lines, agreeing with the sentiment - like don't make rape jokes, you're being an entitled, solipsistic dick, it's playing with fire, &c&c&c - but feeling pedantic about the methodology, because separating the mechanical humour stuff from social effect feels tidy and pat. & the couple of louis ck rape jokes i can think of mention it in weird ways; there's the one where he says, you should never rape anyone, & then, almost as if a corollary, unless there's a good reason, like they wouldn't have sex with you. & this sounds brutal, & there's the shock-impact of hearing a guy say this in a room involved, but i really think the laugh is in watching a guy so absurdly miscalculate - the kind of thing the onion played off with their 'autistic news reporter' who didn't understand the emotional dimension of tragedies, like the humour is hearing a guy perform an incredibly confused assessment of something in a room in which we all understand that it's wrong. it is a rape joke; it is in incredibly personal territory that risks by its very mention dragging its audience into personally difficult ground; & yet i sorta feel like it's true that comedy is one of the closest things that has a license to plumb this shit, & that there is some possibility of catharsis & social use in having an arena in which it isn't off-limits.

so re: louie & daniel tosh, idk, i think it's his principled stand for comics; that he doesn't think that free speech is contingent on comics having the rights to 'go places', &c - he said as much about this in his defences of tracy morgan & opie & antony, & i really think he'd be shouting as loudly irrespective of what was said. & re: his rape jokes, i really feel they fit in with the way his character works on the rest of his show, or with the self-deprecation of the rest of his live act, which is that we aren't meant to agree with the guy onscreen just because he shares his name, & we're often meant to watch the guy being a dick.

i think the key to the "good reason" gag is just after that bit when he says "how else are you supposed to have an orgasm in their body", which I interpret as sort of baldly stating the absurdity of a rapist mentality. but i can see how that offends some people and i don't guess there's much to be done about that.

that joke came out of the hitler rape bit, and then there was the other about the girl in his hotel room. i don't know of any others but I'm not a expert on the man.

but i totally understand why that tweet and the whole "comedians supporting each other through anything" is nagl. I think if he had said anything about the actual incident then it might be a different thing, but maybe I'm just an apologist who reads his only referencing his show (Tosh gets stick from other comedians about his standup, and it's debatable about how much of that is joking or not) as support without condoning what he did in that incident.

to get to absurdly cataloguing them: there's a bit about denver on WORD w/a rape joke, & the heckler bit in the series.

but i can see how that offends some people and i don't guess there's much to be done about that.

^ see w/Louis CK this is p much 100% where i am at with this - i am okay with his right and approach to making these jokes; & that they offend people is inevitable and that they are offended is obviously neither wrong nor surprising - any personal criticism he gets, he risked, by going there. it's that there is "humour", cf tosh's, that is just rape allusions filtered through comedy phrasing, which confuses things, for me.

but i totally understand why that tweet and the whole "comedians supporting each other through anything" is nagl. I think if he had said anything about the actual incident then it might be a different thing, but maybe I'm just an apologist who reads his only referencing his show (Tosh gets stick from other comedians about his standup, and it's debatable about how much of that is joking or not) as support without condoning what he did in that incident.

― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Friday, 13 July 2012 22:29 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah otm i think. like fuck patton oswalt; i think blaming the audience member is really fucked up, & i still only got a free speech thing from Louis's thing.

xpost to the gukbe post from 5:13
yeah and i'm really troubled by most of that stuff that i've read and many women i know i are also troubled. the suggestion that the opinions of some women (that yes, happen to align with the chauvanist get a sense of humor status quo) is being used to negate the opinion of other women is really troublesome.

as a woman and a survivor i don't have the luxury to decide to not be offended. it is not even a matter of taking offense. it is something that has a much deeper hold on my psyche and mental well-being. and i'm not alone in this and it's not a radical fringe feminist stance but something that effects 1 in 6 american women on a much more visceral level than "offense".

it's not a radical fringe feminist stance but something that effects 1 in 6 american women on a much more visceral level than "offense".

i find wording all of this stuff really difficult & hope none of my post pitches 'enjoying comedy' and 'being offended' as equally felt reactions; i can't find a way to refer to people's reaction to this that doesn't sound like the language of aesthetesism & preferences, & understand that it isn't an argument about that.

I don't think they are negating other women, there are just different takes.

I also don't think you're a radical fringe feminist, and I totally respect your position and I don't think you're wrong, I just don't agree with it, if that makes sense. As I'm not a rape survivor I'll never have that perspective, but just yesterday a rape survivor posted 15 rape jokes she thinks are funny, and some of those I think are a bit wrong. I think there's a way to intelligently understand these jokes on a case-by-case basis. For me, CK's jokes as far as I know are alright, as has been mentioned. But they won't be for everybody, and there are no easy answers on that one.

xpost

are you talking about the lindy west jezebel thing, because it's been pretty harshly criticized by a lot of feminists.

i'm not going to tell anyone that they can't find a rape joke funny - i can and have, gallows humor and all that - but to me it's flawed and dismissive to reduce this discussion to an issue about humor. rape has become so pervasive in comedy - and on prime time tv shows like 30 rock, etc. - that i really find it hard to believe that people are dissecting each one a case-to-case basis. what it does do is contribute to a culture that normalizes and dismisses violence against women.

that conversations like this can happen without people descending into ad hominem and screaming is why i still like ilx most days

I was talking about this: http://kateharding.info/2012/07/13/15-rape-jokes-that-work/

And there are some good takedowns of the Lindy West Jezebel one, yeah, but I think both sides have made good points and bad points.

I agree that there is a sick culture that normalizes and dismisses violence against women, and that Daniel Tosh and his fans are just a part of the larger problem, but I don't really know what the solution is. I think if every comedian was, generally, as thoughtful and considerate as Louis is on a lot of topics, that would be a big step forward.

xpost

xxpost forks it's taken 4 attempts on other threads tbh but yeah, this is p cool

i just find the "rape jokes are ok if they're funny" stance to be really flawed because what we find funny is so subjective! i mean i think most of the jokes on that list are pretty bad! like i've read a lot of people that criticize the tosh joke because it's "not even funny" and i think that's really missing the point.

i've yet to see any evidence that louis is thoughtful or considerate on this subject. that's why i felt the need to bring it up on this thread.

Well, to clarify, I said on "a lot of topics", because I don't know where he comes down on what type of rape joke is acceptable or not.

"acceptable" in the sense of what he would put in his set, I should say. I think it's clear that he's fine with whatever comedians do, because he's very protective of the craft. Which again I understand but I don't fully agree with.

i am just reposting this video because it's quasi-relevant - discussing audience reactions to personally potentially hurtful content, & an example of the sorta bind involved, w/there being at least some attempt to address that - & bc it's good to rewatch. bene OTM re: the "it's not even funny" thing being a canard. i think upthread i am pushing for a not totally dissimilar distinction between jokes that are not just referential to rape, in which its alluded to or used or w/e, but it's that tosh was using it as a topic with which to attack someone that's so awful, to me, the content or context almost an aside. it's really true that's the what's funny is subjective, so something's-fine-cause-it's-funny is flawed, but i do think it leaves a weird dilemma, which is that people pointedly not discussing something that might be offensive, something similarly subjective, is a restriction on where people can go on stage, & that the personal code of i'm not going to go there because it's provocative butts up against the MO of some comedians as general like social commentators.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-55wC5dEnc

would like to draw this out of shlump's post post:

it is a rape joke; it is in incredibly personal territory that risks by its very mention dragging its audience into personally difficult ground; & yet i sorta feel like it's true that comedy is one of the closest things that has a license to plumb this shit, & that there is some possibility of catharsis & social use in having an arena in which it isn't off-limits.

this is my thought wrt most offensive art. my way of putting is that it gives me a chance to look directly at this horrible thing without the gut reaction of immediately turning away or giving it the massive emotional energy required to understand it even a little. also, most jokes about terrible things are throwaways. they shift the tone dramatically but then the performer brings it back around to something palatable. this ain't like chris rock's joke about how black people have their own porn.

not sure I want male comedians leading the charge of exploring rape as a territory for comedy yknow?
I like louis ck a lot and love this show but his defense of horrible comedians is never agl

And there are some good takedowns of the Lindy West Jezebel one, yeah, but I think both sides have made good points and bad points.

Do you have some links you could list here? I'd like to read some of them.

Not that I'm trying to make anyone my intern, I just wouldn't know the good articles to read, necessarily.

This was posted elsewhere: http://modernistwitchery.tumblr.com/post/27126517583/a-response-to-lindy-wests-how-to-make-a-rape-joke

Some of the ones I read are buried in other peoples' retweets on my twitter feed. I'll have a look a bit later. /Saturdays

that modernist witchery post was written by my friend jessica...she is amazing

the internet right now is a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to a response to Daniel Tosh

have you not seen the internet before

i've been thinking about this a lot. i don't really have a choice.

not sure I want male comedians leading the charge of exploring rape as a territory for comedy yknow?
this is really spot on. also, maybe this just doesn't have a place in comedy. i know that comedy can be a high art form that serves as a mirror to society, but in practice we are stuck with a bunch of daniel toshes going for the easiest laughs by being shocking or edgy. i'm just not sure comedy is the best place for this dialogue to take place. i certainly think that other art forms - music, fiction, film etc. are appropriate places to deconstruct and comment on rape, when done in a thoughtful and appropriate manner. but if we say it's ok to make rape jokes that are "funny" EVERYONE is going to make rape jokes, because every professional comedian thinks that their own jokes are funny.

the crux of the matter to me is that there is a risk that your words can cause real, actual harm. so make a rape joke. you may make a few people laugh. but the other side of that coin is that you may make other people:
1) have a PTSD episode, or other psychological repercussions
2) feel frightened or attacked
3) view you as someone who is condoning and perpetuating rape culture in a society where 1 in 5 women are sexually assaulted

are the laughs you might get really worth it? have you educated yourself about sexual violence, listened to and read accounts from survivors, researched the link between sexual violence and mental health? and are you confident that you are able to make "the right kind of rape joke" and not the wrong one? is it a worthwhile risk given the harm you could cause?

i've said before that i am a survivor and have made rape jokes in the past as a kind of way of putting distance between myself and what happened to me. at least for me, it was not a lasting or permanent way of dealing with my assaults, not that it couldn't be for other people. but when i realized the other side of making a joke or comment about rape in a casual setting is that it could harm other people, i cut it out.

and for the record, daniel tosh's jokes and the ensuing discussion has been very disruptive to my mental health this week.

thought this ep telegraphed where it was going really quickly and then didn't do anything special once it got there. kinda a disappointment

ok I don't want to read blogs tomorrow but I know I will. I don't know if he made it worse tonight or if he made it "better", if such a thing is even possible anymore.

how would what Louie said on the Daily Show make anything "worse"? what he said was perfect!

what did he say?

he said that feminists are humorless and women need to "shut the fuck up"

He said other things than that, but he did say that, so it's hard to see quite how it was perfect (unless he's going to hunt down Whiney).

He also said that the tweet in question was unconnected to and unaware of the actual Tosh drama - he was on holiday, saw an episode of Tosh.0, sent the tweet.

lol, he actually said that? i thought whiney was just snarking on his 3rd most commonly mentioned twitter television show.

i haven't watched it yet but i have a lot of trouble believing that

he said that feminists are humorless and women need to "shut the fuck up"

awesome. as if i haven't heard that from enough people the last few weeks.

yeah louie ck h8s u bro, sorry

the main thing he said was he was completely unaware of the Tosh controversy when he sent the tweet and was just in his hotel room watching the guy's show and wanted to compliment him. but he also said he read a lot of the criticism/speculation online and learned some things, and had a funny bit about why comedians and bloggers are the 2 worst groups to be in conflict with each other, and did that thing comedians do where they make saying something awful funny and Whiney did that thing sanctimonious people on the internet do where they quote it out of context to make it seem worse.

had a funny bit about why comedians and bloggers are the 2 worst groups to be in conflict with each other

this is probably enough information that i can fill in the details myself, but why is that? (is that where the 'blogs are humorless' comment came in?)

I can't find a clip anywhere but the gist of it is described here:

http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2012/07/17/528161/louis-ck-tosh-twet/

tbf mordy i summarized it badly/inaccurately, here's what he actually said:

It’s also a fight between comedian and feminists, which are natural enemies, because stereotypically speaking, feminists can’t take a joke…And on the other side, comedians can’t take criticism…I’ve read some blogs during this whole thing that have made me enlightened to things I didn’t know. This woman said how rape is something that polices women’s lives. They have a narrow corridor. They can’t go out late, they can’t go to certain neighborhoods, they can’t get a certain way, because they might get—That’s part of me now that wasn’t before. And I can still enjoy a good rape joke…This is also about men and women…Couples are fighting about Daniel Tosh and rape jokes. That’s what I’ve been reading on blogs. But they’re both making a classic gender mistake on this. Because the women are saying ‘This is how I feel about this.’ But they’re also saying ‘My feelings should be everyone’s primary concern.’ But the men are making this mistake, they’re saying ‘Your feelings don’t matter. Your feelings are wrong, and your feelings are stupid.’…To the men I say, ‘Listen. Listen to what the women are saying for a minute.’ And to the women, I say ‘Now that we heard you, now shut the fuck up for a minute.’

Hah, xposted I was about to post the quotes.

Which is on the one hand is not the same as balanced, but better than the abridged Whiney edition. On the other hand as long as there are Whineys, it's hard to see why to bother.

It's missing something without "now let's all get together and kill the Jews."

it's really weird how Louie came to even get involved in this at all, maybe we don't need to overanalyze every single tweet a person sends and assume there's a dozen lines of subtext behind it