Thanks!
(xpost)
― heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:44 (twelve years ago) link
I def support home ownership if that means we can all do our work from our workstations in second life
― dayo, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:46 (twelve years ago) link
I'm not saying I've read that whole 45-page study but it appears to be about homeownership and entrepreneurship in the UK, not exactly what people are talking about in this thread, right?
― boxall, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:48 (twelve years ago) link
lol, the author of this (admittedly not very well-thought out or academically sound) book about artisan entrepreneurship spoke to one of my classes recently and was SUPER disillusioned for some reason and more or less kept saying "this might be your only option in the future, we're sort of all fucked unless you have a bulletproof one hundred percent amazing invention or insane business savvy, get used to it"
― akadarbarijava (psychgawsple), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:48 (twelve years ago) link
xps it's not a joke! i think it's more about choice than either of the two options being better, and if you wanna sit it out and make money when your neighborhood is increasing in value then by all means
yes. what could go wrong.
― iatee, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:50 (twelve years ago) link
Sorry, jon, it's just...you never learn not to try to rebut people with your personal feelings/anecdotes from your life? But then I really don't understand why anyone wants to pick fights with iatee, chinavis, or a couple of other people on this topic, except to shit-stir on bad days. Whether you like them or not, whether you like the conclusions or not, as far as I've been able to tell they have been repeatedly proven right w studies, stats, etc. Plus they're knowledgeable on this specific topic, unlike the posters who repeatedly disagree with them based on feelings or personal bias or w/e. That swipe I made could have been applied to any of them tbh.
― how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:50 (twelve years ago) link
xp so it's ok for them to be forced to leave? they shouldn't have options? i guess i have no idea what you're saying here... the best way to combat gentrification is for everyone to rent?
― akadarbarijava (psychgawsple), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:52 (twelve years ago) link
I wasn't trying to take swipes at iatee, I genuinely disagreed with one of his points based on my personal experience so I tossed it out there. I wasn't out to prove him wrong though, and someone was able to steer me right wrt what I thought. I think it can sometimes be helpful to incorporate some real life eveidence though, lest the argument be nothing more than waving papers in each others faces for post after post.
― heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:53 (twelve years ago) link
papers are collections of real life evidence that tend to be more comprehensive that what we can gather in our personal lives
― lag∞n, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:55 (twelve years ago) link
haven't read the revive at all here but consider this your obligatory "iatee you're wrong" post
― perry en concrète (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:56 (twelve years ago) link
Just because a block quote is from a scholarly publication doesn't mean it settles the question though.
I don't really have an opinion on this and I'm willing to believe psychgospel is more knowledgeable than me, but I glanced at that LSE study long enough to see it was about the UK specifically, would their conclusions transfer to the US necessarily?
― boxall, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:56 (twelve years ago) link
I wasn't saying they should replace research or anything, I just think its okay to bring it down from a macro level now and then.
― heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:56 (twelve years ago) link
lol iatee is the most facist about this stuff and I approve of anyone addressing his crusade, though
― hot sauce delivery device (mh), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:58 (twelve years ago) link
i mean, i think it's somewhat problematic to have 'innate entrepreneurial spirit' included as a variable in any regression analysis but admittedly didn't read about their methods very much
― akadarbarijava (psychgawsple), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:02 (twelve years ago) link
Not questioning their methods at all, I'm in no position to as it's not my field. But there are all differences in the UK and US housing markets that would make their conclusions difficult to transfer across the pond, right?
― boxall, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:04 (twelve years ago) link
idk, it sounds like you're 20-25% less likely to be an 'entrepreneur' if you buy a home but it's mostly linked to the first couple years of home ownership and, I would bet, correlated to market
also highly skeptical of the fact that said articles all refer to home ownership as an "investment" when it is probably a mostly emotional choice rather than a logical one in the current market
― hot sauce delivery device (mh), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:05 (twelve years ago) link
And by market, I mean that my house cost < $150k and it's a common practice to negotiate that the seller pay closing costs around here? That kind of kills the "omg all your money is gone" argument. Big time sink and maintenance is costly, though.
― hot sauce delivery device (mh), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:07 (twelve years ago) link
But there are all differences in the UK and US housing markets that would make their conclusions difficult to transfer across the pond, right?
yes, very different. not saying this invalidates the findings, but it'd be interesting to look at the states too
― akadarbarijava (psychgawsple), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:16 (twelve years ago) link
― akadarbarijava (psychgawsple), Tuesday, July 10, 2012 4:52 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
well go find the gentrification thread because 'fighting gentrification' is another issue / not relevant to 95% of the owners and renters in america
― iatee, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:16 (twelve years ago) link
FWIW I don't believe that having everyone move whereever for the best job they can possibly get all the time is an optimal outcome. That's exactly the kind of free market argument I think is bunk.
― click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, July 10, 2012 4:42 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
it's not a 'free market argument' anymore than 'we should make life better for poor people' is a 'free market argument'. the types of people who are most economically trapped by home ownership are generally not rich people.
― iatee, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:20 (twelve years ago) link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate
as a whole there's no reason to believe that having a society w/ an extremely high homeownership rate is: a. good for the economyb. something 'natural' for a developed country c. something that's good for poor people
― iatee, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:25 (twelve years ago) link
In a properly functioning housing (ownership) market there really shouldn't be a widespread phenomenon of "trapped by home ownership."
― click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:26 (twelve years ago) link
no, buying and selling a house has extremely high transaction costs, even in a properly functioning housing market
― iatee, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:27 (twelve years ago) link
― iatee, Tuesday, July 10, 2012 6:25 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
lol, do I even have to explain the myriad reasons why your link does absolutely nothing to bolster your argument?
― click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:28 (twelve years ago) link
wow bulgaria
― lag∞n, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:29 (twelve years ago) link
who knew
the link doesn't have anything to do w/ c. but there's pretty clearly no correlation between 'rich country' and 'high ownership rate', if anything there's a fairly strong correlation going the other direction.
― iatee, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:29 (twelve years ago) link
But I haven't made any arguments that home ownership is good for per capita GDP that has nothing to do with my point whatsoever.
― click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:30 (twelve years ago) link
Although, for what it's worth, no, there is not a strong correlation in the other direction based on that list.
― click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:31 (twelve years ago) link
not to mention that the list only has 22 countries on it, the majority of which are relatively rich!
alright what was your point, I'm not opening up this entire thread
― iatee, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:32 (twelve years ago) link
Plus I could easily spin it a different way -- there isn't a single third-world country on that list other than arguably Palestine, which is anomolous for a number of reasons.
― click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:33 (twelve years ago) link
oh yeah the 'support network' theory, yeah I think that's kinda nonsense, do you think children in germany and denmark are somehow socially maladjusted by their lack of the 'support network' that comes w/ home ownership
― iatee, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:35 (twelve years ago) link
really there's no reason to believe that having a homeownership rate under 50% is gonna fuck up yr kids, what's gonna fuck up your kids is them living in america
― iatee, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:36 (twelve years ago) link
I don't know enough about German society to respond to that at all.
― click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:36 (twelve years ago) link
I included denmark so you couldn't take the logical 'low homeownership rate' = socially maladjusted = rise of the nazis
really though is there some reason to believe that the way we're doing things is 'better' in any sense
― iatee, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:38 (twelve years ago) link
I do know that it sucks to get forced out of the apartment you've been living in for only a year and pushed into an entirely different neighborhood and basically having to start over with schools and friends. And I do know that moving is one of the largest psychological stressors.
― click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:38 (twelve years ago) link
Wait so iatee, your argument is basically "Grandpa's been smoking for years, and he's healthy"?
― click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:39 (twelve years ago) link
no my argument is that grandpa's been smoking for years and he is gonna die of cancer, grandpa is america
― iatee, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:40 (twelve years ago) link
lol neither does anybody else, arguments like these are about cherrypicking data to support a hypothesis you wouldn't veer from if the relevant counterexample were staring you right in the face, c'mon get on board man
― perry en concrète (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:41 (twelve years ago) link
what i was saying was that, in certain circumstances (perhaps this is the other 5% as you put it, or perhaps this is more about cultural/emotional/financial types of circumstance), home ownership could be seen as a legitimate wealth-building option that could have other positive externalities. though i agree with you that home-ownership is not the uniformly beneficial cure for economic woes that many make it out to be
― akadarbarijava (psychgawsple), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:42 (twelve years ago) link
also the stress that comes w/ finding a place in nyc is due to the nyc renter's market being fucked up. in a world w/ fewer supply restrictions the nyc renter's market wouldn't be the clusterfuck it is today and turnover would be slower because prices wouldn't change as quickly. and I mean moving sux regardless but it still gives people flexibility - again, that's most important for poor people, who are already constrained in more ways than middle class and rich people.
― iatee, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:45 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah but renting = someone else gets to make a lot of money off the fact that the situation is fucked up, at your expense, whereas owning = you get to share some of the benefits or at least avoid some of the detriments.
― click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:47 (twelve years ago) link
choosing to move towards opportunity or w/e and being forced to move (which doesn't just happen in nyc) are very different
― akadarbarijava (psychgawsple), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:47 (twelve years ago) link
home ownership isn't 'wealth-building' anymore than putting that same money in a safe investment is wealth-building. it's not a super great investment, historically. that's fine if you're a middle class person who believes that they have very stable long-term employment and doesn't want to deal w/ the hassle of moving. there are ~reasons to own~. there are even more reasons that way too many people own in america.
― iatee, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:48 (twelve years ago) link
― click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, July 10, 2012 5:47 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
yes, in nyc, which is one of the few markets in america prob 'worth it' in the investment sense.
― iatee, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:49 (twelve years ago) link
the 'burbs are so boring though, and the only places i will ever be able to afford to buy in my lifetime are in the burbs of craptown USA and that way likes suckiness.
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:50 (twelve years ago) link
what do you think is a super great investment historically, iatee
― click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:50 (twelve years ago) link
also anecdotally i was talking to a dude outside a bar and he was jazzed to move out of DC because he wanted to "own land" and he was such a tool so I think that people that are really into the idea of "owning land" are probably tools or at least exhibit tool-ish attributes.
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:51 (twelve years ago) link
Also I think you're missing that the current market is pushing more people into renting, which in turn is lowering vacancy rates and gradually turning other rental markets outside NYC into much more of a clusterfuck
― click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 22:52 (twelve years ago) link