gender fuck or gender fucked (the politics of trans)

jesus zachlyon.

Wait, what? I thought what he said was reasonable...?

i kinda miss these anthony threads.

Cosign with Laurel.

Fetishes on that kinda level are too often an extension of privilege rather than a negation thereof.

what debacle, what happened

Wait, what? I thought what he said was reasonable...?

thank god for defenders of the innocent against the likes of cpt lorax + frogbs

nm i just looked upthread

Fetishes on that kinda level are too often an extension of privilege rather than a negation thereof.

I think it's v. fair to suggest that privilege is a factor in how he framed his thoughts, but I also think it's probable that he's coming at the subject from a more-personal perspective than what seemed to be acknowledged.

i'm never gonna make the finals if i keep posting like this

Mordy, do you think their arguably um misguided opinions are harmless because they're not rhetorical heavy-weights? Or...?

Also trans and genderqueer people (in particular, since we're in that thread) aren't just "the innocent" in some ironic, dismissible way, they're seriously discriminated against in...housing, employment, uh...almost everything?, and are frequently victims of shockingly violent attacks. This isn't really news? I don't grok why you think we should be all "lol ilx" about it and let shit go.

i think there was plenty of push back on cpt lorax when it first happened. no one defended his point of view and only a couple ppl defended his right to speak it at all. i think that crusading around ilx looking for wrongs to right becomes very tedious very quickly. if u see something that bothers u, speak up but maybe in this thread it looked like the posters got it. just like every time i've ever seen frogbs say something on ilx offensive, ppl were not shy about calling him on it.

ts: endlessly being offensive vs endlessly being otm

I think that the real "privilege" at play here was people's privilege to deride Lorax's inquiries as "101 stuff".

Laurel, Lorax is Chinatown. Some things you're never gonna change.

Again with the "u just lookin' for stuff to get offended by" vs "this is the stuff that materially affects the quality and shape of our lives" narrative which gets old v v fast.

Yes ppl on ILX have the right to say what they like, in theory. They also have the right to face the consequences of what they say when those things affect others.

Also fucking LOL at the idea of "having experienced oppression" = somehow "Privileged to be beyond 101" - you really don't get the concept of how this works, do you?

I mean, whatevs. It's ok if you don't grok how it works. Believe it or not ppl itt were not giving Lorax grief for being at 101 but for his blatant refusal to research, look up, learn, listen. For being disparaging of the idea of even looking at this stuff on a wiki - let alone listening to ppl who have actually experienced it.

Everyone has the right to be ignorant on first encountering something new or different. What we don't have is the right to be ignorant while still insisting that we know more or our purely theoretical ~theories~ have more relevance or right-to-be-taken-seriously than those who have actually lived through some of these experiences.

Lorax wasn't given a beatdown for being ignorant, he was given a beatdown for refusing to listen, learn or even engage.

I have got to stop typing complex stuff on an iPhone but this makes me too angry to wait to get to work.

here's the closest thing I've found to a decent source yet.

http://www.apa.org/topics/sexuality/transgender.aspx

They don't break things down into numbers and percentages in the way that would be preferable, but at least it's the American Psychological Association. I feel that you can make a pretty safe assumption that as a prominent scientific organization they have the numbers to back themselves up.

oh yeah WCC, you are never trawling/trolling ilx looking for things to get offended by

this is a good example tho.

i wrote: "no one defended his point of view and only a couple ppl defended his right to speak it at all."

you wrote: "Again with the 'u just lookin' for stuff to get offended by' vs 'this is the stuff that materially affects the quality and shape of our lives' narrative which gets old v v fast."

u know what tho? no one's quality of life was materially affected by what cpt lorax wrote on ilx. you could argue that what he wrote was symptomatic of things that do affect your life materially. or that people have said similar things that did materially affect your life. but the posts on this thread did not materially affect anyone except for cpt lorax.

turning this 9/11 truther - who is routinely mocked by all sorts of ilxers - into the ENEMY cheapens everyone here. he said something offensive, you got to do your bit at him at the time, everyone moved on. i know it makes your blood hot to see the opportunity to go round 2 but he's not even here and you've already put your boxing gloves on. maybe take a deep breath and find something new to talk about. and if there's nothing on gender fuck or gender fucked (the politics of trans) you want to discuss, maybe find a new thread. there are plenty of them.

Please do not presume to tell me how you think that *I* read or relate to ILX. Or how I should read or relate to ILX.

Thanks. The end.

Um, no. Request denied.

Thanks. The beginning??!?!

Srsly, you think you're the one human being to get the Get Out of Being Judged Free card? Give me a break.

I, for one, am interested in what kind of nuanced read Lorax would have on gender after research. His well-researched 9/11 ideas are definitely worth pondering.

Believe it or not ppl itt were not giving Lorax grief for being at 101 but for his blatant refusal to research, look up, learn, listen.

I think Lorax was dismissive because, in his mind, the problem wasn't that his premises were misguided (as others tried in vain to indicate to him) but that he hadn't explained himself well enough. His evident frustration made me feel bad for him, even if the intellectual content of his argument was worth rebutting.

it is nice to picture lorax's points being made by the actual lorax

http://kidfriendlyva.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/lorax1.jpg

I think Lorax was dismissive because, in his mind, the problem wasn't that his premises were misguided (as others tried in vain to indicate to him) but that he hadn't explained himself well enough. His evident frustration made me feel bad for him, even if the intellectual content of his argument was worth rebutting.

dude spent several posts championing the primacy of SCIENCE! and then busted out with:

I think I'm only prejudiced in that the reason that I first entertained this theory of mine is because I was thinking about sexual norms. I have a theory and no answer; so I'm not gonna proclaim that gender and sexual orientation are NOT mutually exclusive. But I will lean towards NOT mutually exclusive because i feel like it

He was not interested in "explaining himself", he was interested in everyone going "omg you are brilliant, what a remarkable breakthrough in scientific thought on bisexuality", as is common with every other argument he puts out there. He is not interested in anything but self-aggrandizement and deserves every bit of mocking and ridicule he gets.

tbf, dude doesn't get out much and is attention-farming the best he can

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xuvfYwzKp7g/TFkHG8cfjfI/AAAAAAAAAl4/a0aCFj99vMo/s1600/Mass+Effect+2+-+Mordin+Solus+LOL.jpg

http://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/3435/images/3435_MEDIUM.jpg

One of the most noble, kind, just, wise and empathic characters in children’s literature, who always represented defending the defenseless, standing up for the vulnerable, and encouraging social awareness has here been re-imagined as a snarky, cruel, insensitive, cissexist, gender-policing asshole, who mocks variance in gender presentation, and tramples over the defenseless and vulnerable in the name of maintaining cisnormativity (and making the producers a few extra dollars selling Happy Meals).

I don't know about that, he reached a point where he wasn't trying to communicate any new wrinkle that we'd missed, but was just defending The Spirit of Enquiry.

xp yeah, DJP OTM

I think he saw ILX as a place where people would be willing to entertain or ignore his drunk ideas, not a place where people would basically tell him that he deserved to die for the thought, common mistake

Less the Spirit of Inquiry and more the Spirit of Making Shit Up While High xp

When your ideas start offending people and you don't apologize, I stop having sympathy for you.

That, and the stuff CL was typing into the box was so far from being germane to the topic that it was basically time cube level nonsense.

i'm a little sympathetic. he's clearly a troubled dude. just check out his 9/11 thread. i'm not going to armchair diagnose lorax but when we're talking about privilege let's not forget that being neurotypical is also a privilege.

man this is terrible could we get a lock thread over here

* chews popcorn *

When your ideas start offending people and you don't apologize, I stop having sympathy for you.

I'll try to explain myself. I was drunk and I was wrong and I apologize for that. I'm sorry I forgot how homosexuality is just as natural as heterosexuality. My brain was so focused on whether or not the direct relationship between g and s.o. existed and how different kinds of graphs could express this relationship, that I left out homosexuality from my thought process. I didn't think about more complex direct relationships (more complex graphs) until the next day. Frankly I wasn't thinking much at all

― we gotta move these refrigerators (CaptainLorax), Thursday, June 14, 2012 9:27 PM (3 weeks ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

IMO, saying "I'm sorry, I'm leaving now" and then leaving was exactly the right thing to do

this does not mean that I am going to retroactively decide that Lorax did not deserve any of the harsh things that were said to/about him before that apology, or that if he comes back continuing in his super annoying self-aggrandizing "hey, I'm going to say some super stupid shit to get attention" mode I'm not going to roll my eyes and enjoy the verbal pummeling

if he comes back asking some innocuous question like "can anyone recommend a multivariable calculus book" and ppl tee up with "FOAD YOU USELESS SHIT", all of this concern-trolling will be valid

if CaptainLorax understands multivariable calculus then my reasons for defending him in the first place may be nonexistent

I dunno we need an expert in multivariable calculus round these parts

I could brush up

can anyone recommend a multivariable calculus book

he understands spectographs

he was as much if not moreso concerned with the graphs as with the sexualities supposedly represented by them = something is not quite normo-typical here is it

i never really got what he was getting at. i don't think anyone did, least of all lorax hiself. even so, the fact that people are getting self-righteous about the harm allegedly done by his nonsensical rambling is the craziest thing about this whole clusterfuck.