gender fuck or gender fucked (the politics of trans)

That was xp to somebody

And now we are onto the "tone" part of the argument, and soon we will be at the "why are you being so hostile, I'm just trying to make ~helpful suggestions~?" part of the argument! I swear there must be some kind of manual for this!

we could probably just reiterate "estela otm" and hopefully conclude it all there

http://derailingfordummies.com/ is the book you are after

sincerity and lorax are but distant cousins

begging the question of a correlation between biological sex in a thread devoted to the politics of trans is maybe not a wise opening move? he's got the right to ask offensive questions. his naivete and obliviousness to his own privilege does not require anyone to give an answer, or educate him, or indulge him at all. it doesn't matter what his intention was. an angry chorus of rebuke is just what he deserved imho.

also when some people did try to engage him, his saying "yeah, i don't care about any of that" on the collective knowledge of subject and "i prefer to explore my own ideas because they interest me" does deserve a "fuck off and die" at the very least.

if he had revived one of the many threads about race on ilx babbling some nonsense about "what if someone was 100% biracial" and wondering some bell-curve bullshit out loud about statistical correlation between race and behavior, there would have no one to defend him.

how is this different? how is this different at ALL? people defending lorax itt are welcome to fuck off and die with him, as far as i'm concerned.

but he was sorting out some of the most nuanced and misunderstood facets of human life with MATH! why won't you let him be great!

there's only room for one great here, the late great FUIUD!!!!!!!!

anyway personally i think it behooves lorax to make more of an effort to understand why some people might be offended by his quantification, and i agree that he's kinda taking this derbyshire-ish "whatever happened to open inquiry?!?" stance which is nagl

otoh FOAD is how i often feel on threads where ilxors are talking about intelligence or education like they're quantifiable variables or speaking from privilege about race so i guess there is a little lorax in all of us

100% biracial people would be entirely split on Trayvon/Zimmerman, obviously.

nah they'd 100% support zimmerman who is himself 100% biracial (white hispanic)

people defending lorax itt are welcome to fuck off and die with him, as far as i'm concerned.

I'm sorry I can tolerate ignorance and obstinance instead of just shouting people down and expecting them to immediately understand & accept my arguments at face value. I don't think stupid people should fuck off and die.

I understand that comes off as me patting myself on the back for being so ~tolerant~ when really I'm privileged enough to not have to be enraged by this shit - but seriously, I always forget some ILXors have literally no tolerance for any stupidity whatsoever to the degree that they think it's cool to tell someone to kill themselves just because they're too dumb to understand a complex subject that people didn't really address in a meaningful way itt because they were too busy balking at Lorax's stupidity.

yes. how very tolerant of you to excuse him of pursuing a disingenuous & offensive line of inquiry. i see you've given yourself a hearty pat on the back for that. well done, indeed. xp

being an idiot doesn't excuse lorax from being an asshole.

being an idiot doesn't excuse lorax from being an asshole.

― real men have been preparing manly dishes for centuries (elmo argonaut),

I'm not sure crüt is saying that it does! Sometimes assholes are just more objects of pity than scorn.

^ gets it

lorax being an asshole doesn't excuse sleeve being an asshole.

Crüt:

a) you are speaking with privilege here. A lot of people on this thread don't see it as an instance of idiocy to be tolerated and changed, they see it as yet another example of a structural monolith that keeps on beating them around the head (if you excuse mixed metaphors). Patience wears thin. Personally, I try to remember that within that monolith, there are individuals, and they often don't realise that this is something that is gone over time and again, so I will try to hold back the hostility/give honest responses if I feel that the person is genuinely making a mistake rather than being offensive on purpose. However, Lorax was pretty much in the middle of that spectrum, and from his past posting history I don't blame anyone for assuming that he was trolling. His responses just compound the initial post.

b) 'fuck off and die' is an expression. Lots of people use it. Most people use it metaphorically, or at least the last part. I understand not liking the expression, but I think you take it too literally here.

also, re: terms and not being familiar with things, zachylon introduced the term "genderqueer" in a matter of fact way, and wasn't accusatory at all, and lorax then dismissed that term (" 'genderqueer', or whatever"). i don't think that indicates any sort of engagement in the topic, and everything he said after that pretty much confirmed it.

remember that year or so when "die in a fire" was common internet parlance

hyperbolic expressions of dismissal borne from frustration just don't seem worthy of taking arms against compared to what lorax was doing

x-post to emil.y: yes, I agree. sorry for unnecessarily pissing people off further.

well tbf i don't know if what lorax was doing really merits hyperbolic expressions of hostility

just checking, crut: the guy who revived this thread with offensive bullshit is the one deserving of sympathy, and the people he offended are the aggressors? wow, go fuck yourself.

pity ≠ sympathy, imo

that's not what I meant, exactly. I was offended by what Lorax said.

also I don't think lorax was being aggressive so much as oafish.

i sometimes wish ILX were a bit more open to divergent positions where potentially controversial subjects are concerned, rather than tending to seeing disagreement as grandstanding challops at best, trolling, bigotry and/or idiocy at worst. otoh, i do not wish ILX were more welcoming of trolls, bigots and idiots, so maybe the present balance is the best of all possible worlds.

I'm sorry I can tolerate ignorance and obstinance instead of just shouting people down and expecting them to immediately understand & accept my arguments at face value. I don't think stupid people should fuck off and die.

i mean good for you but imo when a person opens up a conversation with an offensive stance on a sensitive issue, clearly without having done something as simple as a google search on the subject, and then discussing the subject as stoners might apparently discuss the possibility of DRAGONS STILL BEING OUT THERE MAN, you can't really hold it against anyone else for not tolerating it

I'll miss ILX. I just don't want to be the butt anymore

― we gotta move these refrigerators (CaptainLorax), Friday, June 15, 2012 6:39 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

what percent gay are you if you're the butt

thing is i thought i was pretty nice about it in the first place? i was giving concrete answers because the questions he was asking HAD concrete answers that didn't need any further scienceing, but i wasn't trying to be an ass about it because i don't expect others to know much about transgender things. i don't think i was victimizing him. do i have to start using emoticons.

sorry guys, i think expecting people to patiently & politely suffer personally insulting opinions for the sake of fairness and open discussion is some serious backwards paternalistic bullshit.

there wouldn't have been a pile-on if lorax had left it as his original o_0 drunk ramblings, it happened because when people civilly corrected him he was like YOU ARE NOT LETTING ME EXPLAIN MY IMPORTANT THEORY ABOUT TRANS PEOPLE TO YOU which is a bullshit stance to take that totally deserves to be shouted down in the most obnoxious and insulting terms possible

great thread

if there's a discussion about sexuality and someone's first utterance contains percentages, unless they're reading some polling data it's just like, where do you even begin

did everyone just completely miss where Lorax hinted ominously of GAY ACTIVISTS or what?

fwiw i don't see how lorax's treatment here is any different from how he's always been treated. the guy made his bones here on some aspie/alex jones shit!

xp yes i guess i did! i read in a hurry. was mostly looking for the estela zing tbh.

i guess people just think we're being to hard on poor lorax because he's some sort of harmless bumbling buffoon who poses no real intellectual threat?

hint: he's not harmless.

if someone is 100% androgynous, ie. 50% male and 50% female, the greyest grey, then would they also be 100% bisexual?

you might say that sexual orientation and gender are two totally different things, and rightly so for the most part, but wouldn't you say that a 100% androgynous person is more male if they are attracted to females? or am I just prejudiced from heterosexuality being the sexual orientation norm?

these numbers have absolutely no relationship to anything real. what would "100% bisexual" even mean? someone who makes sure to have exact gender balance in all sexual experiences? it's all nonsense. this is just a math word problem in somebody's head. might as well be two trains leaving cleveland at the same time.

the only way lorax can be "defended" is along these lines, imo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurodiversity

change title to "itt a butt"

the only way lorax can be "defended" is along these lines, imo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurodiversity

honestly that's the perspective I was coming from

ok but accepting neurodiversity is not a free pass for people to act however they want nor does it forbid telling someone "hey this thing you are doing is not socially acceptable in this setting"

well yeah

"hey this thing you are doing is not socially acceptable in this setting" != "fuck off and die," which again is the post I'm referring to here

sorry guys, i think expecting people to patiently & politely suffer personally insulting opinions for the sake of fairness and open discussion is some serious backwards paternalistic bullshit.

eh, hardline conservatives would say something very similar about ideas they despise, though they'd likely choose different adjectives. a preference for tolerance and constructive engagement over flamewars is not necessarily "backwards paternalistic bullshit".

xp well you're making an awful big deal of one post

well, I'm also trying to explain myself to the people who told me I can go fuck off and die for "defending" lorax.

I was wondering what happened that made this thread blow up, should have guessed it got Loraxed

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