gender fuck or gender fucked (the politics of trans)

This is some stupid bullshit though:

http://www.kfs.org/~jonathan/witt/t7en.html

― "Holy crap," I mutter, as he gently taps my area (silby), Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:22 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think Lorax is an "innocent victim" fwiw. I just tend to think of him as still needing some room to mature & figure shit out.

I do think it's understandable that people don't have patience for the combination of "guy clearly speaking from position of straight white male privilege" and "guy who keeps on arguing/defending himself despite repeated attempts to explain ~real shit~ to him" - I just don't understand how that heats up to the level of FOAD. People are dumb! Sometimes you have to tell people things over and over again for them to get it! They don't deserve to die. I tend to not ever tell people to die, as a rule, though, so I guess that's a personal thing. I'm white btw.

No one ever actually pointed him to a chart showing the incidence of heterosexuality vs. homosexuality vs. bisexuality among people of varied gender i.d's. You'd figure with the number of people on here who seem to perceive themselves as experts on gender identity, someone could have at least been kind enough to do that.

sleeve is pretty much among the worst ilxors tho and really shouldn't be held as an example of normative ilx thought

yeah my initial post was directed at sleeve

If he'd actually been interested, that data was available within 2 clicks of one of the wiki links I posted.

But I think Estella OTM and I'm perpetuating this by continuing to even answer this.

crüt otm imo

I don't think Lorax is an "innocent victim" fwiw. I just tend to think of him as still needing some room to mature & figure shit out.

I do think it's understandable that people don't have patience for the combination of "guy clearly speaking from position of straight white male privilege" and "guy who keeps on arguing/defending himself despite repeated attempts to explain ~real shit~ to him" - I just don't understand how that heats up to the level of FOAD. People are dumb! Sometimes you have to tell people things over and over again for them to get it! They don't deserve to die. I tend to not ever tell people to die, as a rule, though, so I guess that's a personal thing. I'm white btw.

― mississippi joan hart (crüt), Friday, June 15, 2012 8:40 AM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark

the thing is that Lorax pulls that stuff on lots of threads about lots of topics all the time. it was a matter of time before he picked a topic that struck a nerve and nobody had the patience to give him "room to mature" which, uh, how old is this guy.

Within two clicks of your wikipedia link, he also could have read a sort-of half-assed article on Gender-Neutral Toilets.

And now we are going to have a long discussion on how it is the right of privileged ppl to demand that marginalised ppl spoonfeed them information they refuse to digest! In fact not just a right, but a duty! How delightful!

Also, FOAD.

Who is that directed at?

I'm not saying it's a duty, but if you want to help people to understand a worldview that you know a lot about, it's probably better to be kind and generous than to be snotty and withholding.

why is this argument about how to respond to a moronic troll or trollish moron, can't tell which and don't care, still going on

everyone who shut lorax down otm
everyone defending lorax, what is wrong with you

All I know is I read the thread through from the revive and its really hard to believe that anyone could read Capt. Lorax as being anything but sincere in his quest for info, however convoluted and stoner-brained his initial premise.

^ I'm sayin

anyway I don't want to "pull a lorax" myself itt so I'mma back off before I show any more of my privileged ass.

even allowing for my less-than-zero patience for stoner-brained people and arguments, the "waaaah you're not letting me EXPLAIN TRANS ISSUES TO YOU" hissy fit didn't exactly convince me of his sincerity. if he was sincere about it it might be even worse though.

True enough. But nobody has an obligation to do that with someone like Lorax who is at best drunk all the time and at worst trolling the shit out of the thread. Asking questions and disputing in good faith are not in his playbook.

That was xp to somebody

And now we are onto the "tone" part of the argument, and soon we will be at the "why are you being so hostile, I'm just trying to make ~helpful suggestions~?" part of the argument! I swear there must be some kind of manual for this!

we could probably just reiterate "estela otm" and hopefully conclude it all there

http://derailingfordummies.com/ is the book you are after

sincerity and lorax are but distant cousins

begging the question of a correlation between biological sex in a thread devoted to the politics of trans is maybe not a wise opening move? he's got the right to ask offensive questions. his naivete and obliviousness to his own privilege does not require anyone to give an answer, or educate him, or indulge him at all. it doesn't matter what his intention was. an angry chorus of rebuke is just what he deserved imho.

also when some people did try to engage him, his saying "yeah, i don't care about any of that" on the collective knowledge of subject and "i prefer to explore my own ideas because they interest me" does deserve a "fuck off and die" at the very least.

if he had revived one of the many threads about race on ilx babbling some nonsense about "what if someone was 100% biracial" and wondering some bell-curve bullshit out loud about statistical correlation between race and behavior, there would have no one to defend him.

how is this different? how is this different at ALL? people defending lorax itt are welcome to fuck off and die with him, as far as i'm concerned.

but he was sorting out some of the most nuanced and misunderstood facets of human life with MATH! why won't you let him be great!

there's only room for one great here, the late great FUIUD!!!!!!!!

anyway personally i think it behooves lorax to make more of an effort to understand why some people might be offended by his quantification, and i agree that he's kinda taking this derbyshire-ish "whatever happened to open inquiry?!?" stance which is nagl

otoh FOAD is how i often feel on threads where ilxors are talking about intelligence or education like they're quantifiable variables or speaking from privilege about race so i guess there is a little lorax in all of us

100% biracial people would be entirely split on Trayvon/Zimmerman, obviously.

nah they'd 100% support zimmerman who is himself 100% biracial (white hispanic)

people defending lorax itt are welcome to fuck off and die with him, as far as i'm concerned.

I'm sorry I can tolerate ignorance and obstinance instead of just shouting people down and expecting them to immediately understand & accept my arguments at face value. I don't think stupid people should fuck off and die.

I understand that comes off as me patting myself on the back for being so ~tolerant~ when really I'm privileged enough to not have to be enraged by this shit - but seriously, I always forget some ILXors have literally no tolerance for any stupidity whatsoever to the degree that they think it's cool to tell someone to kill themselves just because they're too dumb to understand a complex subject that people didn't really address in a meaningful way itt because they were too busy balking at Lorax's stupidity.

yes. how very tolerant of you to excuse him of pursuing a disingenuous & offensive line of inquiry. i see you've given yourself a hearty pat on the back for that. well done, indeed. xp

being an idiot doesn't excuse lorax from being an asshole.

being an idiot doesn't excuse lorax from being an asshole.

― real men have been preparing manly dishes for centuries (elmo argonaut),

I'm not sure crüt is saying that it does! Sometimes assholes are just more objects of pity than scorn.

^ gets it

lorax being an asshole doesn't excuse sleeve being an asshole.

Crüt:

a) you are speaking with privilege here. A lot of people on this thread don't see it as an instance of idiocy to be tolerated and changed, they see it as yet another example of a structural monolith that keeps on beating them around the head (if you excuse mixed metaphors). Patience wears thin. Personally, I try to remember that within that monolith, there are individuals, and they often don't realise that this is something that is gone over time and again, so I will try to hold back the hostility/give honest responses if I feel that the person is genuinely making a mistake rather than being offensive on purpose. However, Lorax was pretty much in the middle of that spectrum, and from his past posting history I don't blame anyone for assuming that he was trolling. His responses just compound the initial post.

b) 'fuck off and die' is an expression. Lots of people use it. Most people use it metaphorically, or at least the last part. I understand not liking the expression, but I think you take it too literally here.

also, re: terms and not being familiar with things, zachylon introduced the term "genderqueer" in a matter of fact way, and wasn't accusatory at all, and lorax then dismissed that term (" 'genderqueer', or whatever"). i don't think that indicates any sort of engagement in the topic, and everything he said after that pretty much confirmed it.

remember that year or so when "die in a fire" was common internet parlance

hyperbolic expressions of dismissal borne from frustration just don't seem worthy of taking arms against compared to what lorax was doing

x-post to emil.y: yes, I agree. sorry for unnecessarily pissing people off further.

well tbf i don't know if what lorax was doing really merits hyperbolic expressions of hostility

just checking, crut: the guy who revived this thread with offensive bullshit is the one deserving of sympathy, and the people he offended are the aggressors? wow, go fuck yourself.

pity ≠ sympathy, imo

that's not what I meant, exactly. I was offended by what Lorax said.

also I don't think lorax was being aggressive so much as oafish.

i sometimes wish ILX were a bit more open to divergent positions where potentially controversial subjects are concerned, rather than tending to seeing disagreement as grandstanding challops at best, trolling, bigotry and/or idiocy at worst. otoh, i do not wish ILX were more welcoming of trolls, bigots and idiots, so maybe the present balance is the best of all possible worlds.

I'm sorry I can tolerate ignorance and obstinance instead of just shouting people down and expecting them to immediately understand & accept my arguments at face value. I don't think stupid people should fuck off and die.

i mean good for you but imo when a person opens up a conversation with an offensive stance on a sensitive issue, clearly without having done something as simple as a google search on the subject, and then discussing the subject as stoners might apparently discuss the possibility of DRAGONS STILL BEING OUT THERE MAN, you can't really hold it against anyone else for not tolerating it

I'll miss ILX. I just don't want to be the butt anymore

― we gotta move these refrigerators (CaptainLorax), Friday, June 15, 2012 6:39 AM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

what percent gay are you if you're the butt

thing is i thought i was pretty nice about it in the first place? i was giving concrete answers because the questions he was asking HAD concrete answers that didn't need any further scienceing, but i wasn't trying to be an ass about it because i don't expect others to know much about transgender things. i don't think i was victimizing him. do i have to start using emoticons.