gender fuck or gender fucked (the politics of trans)

what if the nerd is a trans or queer person saying “please don’t speak about my actual lived experiences without doing any research about it”? what a debbie downer!

― staethyr,

tell me, what did I speak about the actual lived experience of trans people?

if people are getting infuriated at me, can you please do me the courtesy of telling me why?

it's because you are babbling about shit you clearly don't know a goddamn thing about and acting like that just because you come up with ~radical ideas~ about gender and sexuality while drunk you deserve the deference due a great scientific thinker

and how am I acting like that? how does one act like they deserve deference?

I do not have the patience to explain your malfunctions to you in detail; have a nice evening.

whatever

lorax you implied (maybe just for theory's sake) gay men were less male than straight men

do you think if you proposed on a different thread that white people who are attracted to non-white people were less white than other white people yr fellow ilxors would not be weirded out by your whole line of questioning?

the jig is up

Yes I need to remember that this isn't a group of stoners or data miners but a group of strangers. a bunch of straight white guys where I can just be all privileged and shit.

lorax you implied (maybe just for theory's sake) gay men were less male than straight men

― teh late great

I'm not sure how I did that. Please point out exactly where I implied this so I can explain myself

that's hardly an incentive.

I've politely asked 3 different people to explain where they are reading the specific things that caused them alarm but no one has answered me. Of course, I only just recently asked teh late great

Hi Lorax, I hope the late great doesn't mind me answering for him, but you implied it right here, in your first reviving post: wouldn't you say that a 100% androgynous person is more male if they are attracted to females?

Yes I need to remember that this isn't a group of stoners

woah woah woah i resent that

I fully grok the "stoners sitting around a campfire" interpretation of ilx. No opinion on the gender issues here though. Just wanted to suggest that the thread title be changed to "the politics of transing".

thanks emily. I missed that

I'll try to explain myself. I was drunk and I was wrong and I apologize for that. I'm sorry I forgot how homosexuality is just as natural as heterosexuality. My brain was so focused on whether or not the direct relationship between g and s.o. existed and how different kinds of graphs could express this relationship, that I left out homosexuality from my thought process. I didn't think about more complex direct relationships (more complex graphs) until the next day. Frankly I wasn't thinking much at all

and I was always thinking about math at that

I miss Suggest Ban. Lorax, please stop engaging in drunken speculation, your "opinions" are totally offensive and objectionable. Fuck off and die, also Suggest Ban

yes, I limited the possibility for homosexuality when I limited my mind to only seeing certain graphs. Im sorry. I;ll go kill myself

hey CaptainLorax, based on what I can recall the last time you dropped your hilarious theories into a thread and made people angry at you, you don't know a goddamn thing about math, so it's not really a good excuse for not knowing a goddamn thing about gender identity either.

sleeve u can flag post it is the same as suggest ban

lorax - if you stop being so defensive for a minute, you'll hopefully notice that, along with the smackdowns, you've received a fair amount of useful, constructive advice itt. you might do well to back off for a while and think about some of it.

frankly, the course of this thread over the last day or so was entirely and sadly predictable after your first few posts. so, you said some dumb shit when you were drunk. fine, that happens to nearly everybody, but whining as though you're the injured party isn't doing much to calm the waters. better strategy when you realize you fucked up: apologize gracefully and take a breather.

Yeah this thread has, WTFery aside, been very constructive. heck I've learned things. And like hows life I also have "the politics of dancing" stuck in my head thanks to thread title argh.

"you haven't taken my idiot theory seriously! my unfounded ramblings deserve a serious reply! this isn't fair!" - a dumb cis straight male person

Xp, I apologized the best I could. The result: I was told I should die and that I suck at everything I do. (Well, I guess the "I am terrible at just about everything was more than just the result"). It hurts when people reduce my college degree to toilet paper. There's nothing I can do to change that back. You are only allowed so many mistakes.

So I've decided to quit. If ending it all to escape eternal negative judgements (albeit based mostly on things I've done out of stupidity) seems like whining, then yes, I guess I'm a whiner too. There's no way to turn some things around without a fresh start, or in this case, a long farewell.

I'll miss ILX. I just don't want to be the butt anymore

man see u

For the record, I only whined long enough to quit. It wasn't like I was whining for a real long time, unless you call my long spout of apologizing and trying to defend (or clarify) myself to be whining (which takes a long time to do because there was so much I had to say).

Slime, Out.

I miss Suggest Ban. Lorax, please stop engaging in drunken speculation, your "opinions" are totally offensive and objectionable. Fuck off and die, also Suggest Ban

― sleeve, Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:35 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^ flagged this post

bring back captainlorax

do you tell everyone who is kind of dumb about transgendered people to fuck off and die? do you really expect CaptainLorax to have a fully formed understanding of gender/sexuality right out of the gate? being thick certainly doesn't deserve a "fuck off and die" imo.

tbh I agree with crut here. I have to admit that his initial question wasnt out of the gate offensive to me, but at the same time I did think "ok there'd be ppl here who are into gender politix who can explain better". And, well they sort of did... but this immediate "you are completely wrong" shit he got wasn't helpful. OK I agree, he was - but why? I still dont know if i know why, and I dont think that was brought across well?

That said lorax didnt help his cause by then jamming himself into "well this is my idea stfu you guys". I dunno.

I guess I expect ILXors to be more familiar with/tolerant of CaptainLorax's approach than I expect CaptainLorax to be familiar with gender identity.

Talking poisonous shit about people far less privileged than him - and in particular refusing to engage with the issue that maybe lived experience might outweigh some poisonous shit he was spinning, is worth a FOAD, yeah. Not even mentioning playing "why are people pissing on my dreaaaams?"

You know, I don't even think it was his initial idiocy that garnered him the "fuck off and die" comments. It was his increasingly entitled and butthurt pushback against people who were trying to explain his errors to him.

It's pretty disingenuous to pretend Lorax is some innocent victim.

No one's defending his position here tho (well I'm not). I do think that a bit more of a "why is he wrong" may have shut him up. But, I'm coming from a very "i know zero about trans/gender politix" position and I dont expect others to kow tow to that. I just accept that I'm dense on that subject and...well, frankly I then skip the thread. Which seems unhelpful. But then again I'm not asking ILX to educate me.

i really kept holding out hope that he would know when to leave well enough alone, but he just kept going and going and going, trying to have the last word until he finally realized that wasn't going to happen and had to take his ball and go home

He was even asking ppl to educate him. He was all "why are you Debbie Downers disrupting my beautiful StraightWhiteDude concepts with your inconvenience Wikipedia bullshit facts? I'm being oppressed, maaaaan!" which no one on ILX will tolerate

i think he was not at all earnestly seeking knowledge but people politely answered him anyway and then he turned on them in a familiar captain lorax way and then when they objected he acted like a victim also in a familiar captain lorax way and now he has departed in a familiar captain lorax way. i also think he was enjoying himself immensely the whole time.

Wasn't. Stupid oppressive iPhone spellcheck bullshit, maaaaan.

estela otm.

This is some stupid bullshit though:

http://www.kfs.org/~jonathan/witt/t7en.html

― "Holy crap," I mutter, as he gently taps my area (silby), Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:22 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think Lorax is an "innocent victim" fwiw. I just tend to think of him as still needing some room to mature & figure shit out.

I do think it's understandable that people don't have patience for the combination of "guy clearly speaking from position of straight white male privilege" and "guy who keeps on arguing/defending himself despite repeated attempts to explain ~real shit~ to him" - I just don't understand how that heats up to the level of FOAD. People are dumb! Sometimes you have to tell people things over and over again for them to get it! They don't deserve to die. I tend to not ever tell people to die, as a rule, though, so I guess that's a personal thing. I'm white btw.

No one ever actually pointed him to a chart showing the incidence of heterosexuality vs. homosexuality vs. bisexuality among people of varied gender i.d's. You'd figure with the number of people on here who seem to perceive themselves as experts on gender identity, someone could have at least been kind enough to do that.

sleeve is pretty much among the worst ilxors tho and really shouldn't be held as an example of normative ilx thought

yeah my initial post was directed at sleeve

If he'd actually been interested, that data was available within 2 clicks of one of the wiki links I posted.

But I think Estella OTM and I'm perpetuating this by continuing to even answer this.

crüt otm imo

I don't think Lorax is an "innocent victim" fwiw. I just tend to think of him as still needing some room to mature & figure shit out.

I do think it's understandable that people don't have patience for the combination of "guy clearly speaking from position of straight white male privilege" and "guy who keeps on arguing/defending himself despite repeated attempts to explain ~real shit~ to him" - I just don't understand how that heats up to the level of FOAD. People are dumb! Sometimes you have to tell people things over and over again for them to get it! They don't deserve to die. I tend to not ever tell people to die, as a rule, though, so I guess that's a personal thing. I'm white btw.

― mississippi joan hart (crüt), Friday, June 15, 2012 8:40 AM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark

the thing is that Lorax pulls that stuff on lots of threads about lots of topics all the time. it was a matter of time before he picked a topic that struck a nerve and nobody had the patience to give him "room to mature" which, uh, how old is this guy.

Within two clicks of your wikipedia link, he also could have read a sort-of half-assed article on Gender-Neutral Toilets.

And now we are going to have a long discussion on how it is the right of privileged ppl to demand that marginalised ppl spoonfeed them information they refuse to digest! In fact not just a right, but a duty! How delightful!