gender fuck or gender fucked (the politics of trans)

I've never seen a fast food hamburger that wasn't rock hard and inedible after ~12 hours.

like your data points are not some bullshit survey like "rank your job satisfaction 1-5"

this is something that's been actively used to pathologize, oppress and marginalize groups of people even up to the present day

what's next, you're going to start an interesting "what if?" theoretical thread on physiognomy?

it's kind of weird that "burger" was the gender neutral pit stop, since the only burger role model around is mayor mccheese who definitely presents as male.

furburger

Have you ever seen a gendered burger?

lorax: it seems reasonable to ask whether biological gender, experiential gender and sexual orientation are related, and if so how; and beyond all that, how we might begin to answer or even examine such questions in the first place.

otoh, it's less than reasonable to simply assert an opinion without apparent theoretical or factual support while suggesting that those who believe otherwise lack adequate scientific support for their position. and once you've admitted that you failed to explain yourself coherently, you won't earn much sympathy complaining about the fact that you've been misinterpreted.

either get your posting together, or drop it.

The thing is, there have been academic attempts to quantify this kind of human experience as data, as far back as Masters and Johnson - The Kinsey Scale, the Klein Sexual Orientation Grid and there have even been attempts to map that onto different concepts of gender (and there's also been a whole history of this kind of thing being problematic for many reasons.)

The problem is not trying to take a scientific or even quantitative approach to human sexuality and gender - the problem is acting like a drunken fool on a messageboard without having even done the most basic of research.

Have you ever thought out loud some random theory? I do it all the time. You gotta start somewhere. Imagine a bunch of stoners in a circle sharing some crazy ideas. Then some nerd comes in and is like "you should shut your mouth because you haven't done any research". Is that fair? Is ILX a place where people can openly discuss ideas that pop into their head or should that idea be TSAed every which way before it can be uttered? Why say anything at all? Google would be a lot more informative than a bunch of strangers. I didn't come here posting questions in attempt at finding a universal answer. I came here to discuss the idea in itself. And no, I wasn't looking for a one-sided discussion.

XP to Contenderizer

"otoh, it's less than reasonable to simply assert an opinion without apparent theoretical or factual support while suggesting that those who believe otherwise lack adequate scientific support for their position."

And that is exactly what I thought when I got the answer to my question: "No, they are mutually exclusive" - a belief without apparent theoretical or factual support. At that point I took the opposite stance in hopes of opening the discussion.

The jig is up contenderiser. People share their editorial comments all the time. If they had to be labeled, opinions like the ones discussed last night might be described as a hunch or a belief. I'm not going to crucify someone for their beliefs or hunches, but I do like to discuss them sometimes.

"...and once you've admitted that you failed to explain yourself coherently, you won't earn much sympathy complaining about the fact that you've been misinterpreted."

I'm sorry that you thought I was complaining or looking for sympathy on that matter. What you call complaining, I call 'vocally' accepting that I'm incoherrent and wrong at times so as to better clarify myself.

"either get your posting together, or drop it"

I'm on the level. I'm sorry if you are upset because you think otherwise.

XP to Late the Great

"lorax i think what is offensive to many people is that you would reduce something so personal, complex and culturally overdetermined as sexual preference or gender orientation to cod-quantitative 'data points'"

Yes I need to remember that this isn't a group of stoners or data miners but a group of strangers. Also, if I was more coherrent innitially then maybe the open discussion would have taken us to better places.

If it's not too late I would like to give a shout-out to all my adrogynous home fryz on the east coast being all sexy with your pixie hairdos making me feel ill. Ah fuck it. It's too late

Imagine a bunch of stoners in a circle sharing some crazy ideas. Then some nerd comes in and is like "you should shut your mouth because you haven't done any research". Is that fair?

Yes.

It would also be fair to ditch debbie downer

Hey, a nerd can interject his mind all he wants but as soon as he gets all "shut your mouth" about it or starts spreading some bad voodoo then it's time to send him packing

Imagine a bunch of nerds sitting in a circle. Then some data stoner comes in and is like "CRAZY IDEAS CRAZY IDEAS CRAZY IDEAS".

what if the nerd is a trans or queer person saying “please don’t speak about my actual lived experiences without doing any research about it”? what a debbie downer!

pssst i heard debbie downer used to be a danny downer

adam and eve not adam and debbie

dominique downer

imagine an imaginary idiot and then let him infuriate you.

its not very nice to call lorax imaginary

imagine an imaginary idiot

tautological! demerit!

can we bring back the thing where we start threads that take the form 'ban (poster name)'

be the change you wish to see etc.

i saw a trannie with the hottest ass EVER the other day
― JaXoN (JasonD), Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:55 AM (7 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

what if the nerd is a trans or queer person saying “please don’t speak about my actual lived experiences without doing any research about it”? what a debbie downer!

― staethyr,

tell me, what did I speak about the actual lived experience of trans people?

if people are getting infuriated at me, can you please do me the courtesy of telling me why?

it's because you are babbling about shit you clearly don't know a goddamn thing about and acting like that just because you come up with ~radical ideas~ about gender and sexuality while drunk you deserve the deference due a great scientific thinker

and how am I acting like that? how does one act like they deserve deference?

I do not have the patience to explain your malfunctions to you in detail; have a nice evening.

whatever

lorax you implied (maybe just for theory's sake) gay men were less male than straight men

do you think if you proposed on a different thread that white people who are attracted to non-white people were less white than other white people yr fellow ilxors would not be weirded out by your whole line of questioning?

the jig is up

Yes I need to remember that this isn't a group of stoners or data miners but a group of strangers. a bunch of straight white guys where I can just be all privileged and shit.

lorax you implied (maybe just for theory's sake) gay men were less male than straight men

― teh late great

I'm not sure how I did that. Please point out exactly where I implied this so I can explain myself

that's hardly an incentive.

I've politely asked 3 different people to explain where they are reading the specific things that caused them alarm but no one has answered me. Of course, I only just recently asked teh late great

Hi Lorax, I hope the late great doesn't mind me answering for him, but you implied it right here, in your first reviving post: wouldn't you say that a 100% androgynous person is more male if they are attracted to females?

Yes I need to remember that this isn't a group of stoners

woah woah woah i resent that

I fully grok the "stoners sitting around a campfire" interpretation of ilx. No opinion on the gender issues here though. Just wanted to suggest that the thread title be changed to "the politics of transing".

thanks emily. I missed that

I'll try to explain myself. I was drunk and I was wrong and I apologize for that. I'm sorry I forgot how homosexuality is just as natural as heterosexuality. My brain was so focused on whether or not the direct relationship between g and s.o. existed and how different kinds of graphs could express this relationship, that I left out homosexuality from my thought process. I didn't think about more complex direct relationships (more complex graphs) until the next day. Frankly I wasn't thinking much at all

and I was always thinking about math at that

I miss Suggest Ban. Lorax, please stop engaging in drunken speculation, your "opinions" are totally offensive and objectionable. Fuck off and die, also Suggest Ban

yes, I limited the possibility for homosexuality when I limited my mind to only seeing certain graphs. Im sorry. I;ll go kill myself

hey CaptainLorax, based on what I can recall the last time you dropped your hilarious theories into a thread and made people angry at you, you don't know a goddamn thing about math, so it's not really a good excuse for not knowing a goddamn thing about gender identity either.

sleeve u can flag post it is the same as suggest ban

lorax - if you stop being so defensive for a minute, you'll hopefully notice that, along with the smackdowns, you've received a fair amount of useful, constructive advice itt. you might do well to back off for a while and think about some of it.

frankly, the course of this thread over the last day or so was entirely and sadly predictable after your first few posts. so, you said some dumb shit when you were drunk. fine, that happens to nearly everybody, but whining as though you're the injured party isn't doing much to calm the waters. better strategy when you realize you fucked up: apologize gracefully and take a breather.

Yeah this thread has, WTFery aside, been very constructive. heck I've learned things. And like hows life I also have "the politics of dancing" stuck in my head thanks to thread title argh.

"you haven't taken my idiot theory seriously! my unfounded ramblings deserve a serious reply! this isn't fair!" - a dumb cis straight male person

Xp, I apologized the best I could. The result: I was told I should die and that I suck at everything I do. (Well, I guess the "I am terrible at just about everything was more than just the result"). It hurts when people reduce my college degree to toilet paper. There's nothing I can do to change that back. You are only allowed so many mistakes.

So I've decided to quit. If ending it all to escape eternal negative judgements (albeit based mostly on things I've done out of stupidity) seems like whining, then yes, I guess I'm a whiner too. There's no way to turn some things around without a fresh start, or in this case, a long farewell.

I'll miss ILX. I just don't want to be the butt anymore

man see u

For the record, I only whined long enough to quit. It wasn't like I was whining for a real long time, unless you call my long spout of apologizing and trying to defend (or clarify) myself to be whining (which takes a long time to do because there was so much I had to say).

Slime, Out.

I miss Suggest Ban. Lorax, please stop engaging in drunken speculation, your "opinions" are totally offensive and objectionable. Fuck off and die, also Suggest Ban

― sleeve, Thursday, June 14, 2012 10:35 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^ flagged this post