gender fuck or gender fucked (the politics of trans)

Xp

You win. My thoughts are garbage and the idea of a direct relationship between gender and sexual orientation is uninteresting and therefore not worth sharing

But why are you posting to this thread if I've started such an uninteresting discussion

straight White Cis dude demands "Science!" but wants science to look like the assumptions of SWCD's

Very otm-y.

Lorax, if your ideas weren't meant to be understood as referring to trans people, maybe you could have tried posting them in a different thread. Say, one that didn't explicitly refer to the politics of trans in its title.

trayce: Charles-Geneviève-Louis-Auguste-André-Timothée d'Éon de Beaumont (5 October 1728 Tonnerre – 21 May 1810 London), usually known as the Chevalier d'Éon, was a French diplomat, spy, soldier and Freemason whose first 49 years were spent as a man, and whose last 33 years were spent as a woman. Upon death, a council of physicians discovered that d'Éon's body was anatomically male.

the eighteenth century was best at names.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/08/five-trans-role-models

i also did not know the legendary interplay designer/programmer 'burger' was trans

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134614/the_burger_speaks_an_interview_.php?print=1

I've been holding off on this question for awhile, but I have to know. How'd you get to be called "Burger"?

RH: Remember when I told you I was flat broke? When we founded Interplay, we didn't pay ourselves much. We were starving. When I was at Boone Corporation, I was being paid twelve thousand a year. Slave wages. I was a kid; I didn't know any better. My entire life was get up, go to work, work until I'm too tired, sleep, repeat. Didn't have time for cooking, and I didn't have any money.

There was a place called Hamburger Stand. They sold 29 cent hamburgers. Since I spent most of my time at the office, I didn't want to walk over, buy a burger, and walk back.

So I'd buy a bag of twenty of them. Blow six bucks, get twenty burgers, go to my office, and put them in a drawer. I was too cheap to buy a refrigerator -- well, really too broke. Every so often I'd open the drawer and eat a burger.

I had an office mate who was a health food nut, constantly complaining about how I should eat right, exercise like he did. One day I was working all through the night. I didn't leave. It's the morning, and he comes in, sits across from me. I'm still working.

Around 3 p.m., I'm done. Burger time! I pull open the drawer, reach in, put the bag down, grab a burger, and start munching. Wasn't thinking anything about it. That's when my co-worker looks at me, looks back, looks at me -- and it dawns on him that the bag has been there for who knows how long. Those burgers are pretty firm.

He just loses it. He jumps up, his chair goes flying, he goes, "That burger is insane! That burger is insane!" He runs out. I'm sitting there like, "What's with him? Whatever." Then later Brian Fargo comes in and asks what I did to him. I didn't do anything. What's going on? My co-worker had gone to the restroom and tossed his cookies. That's how disgusted he was.

So then, the rumor started. "Did you eat any burgers lately?" So they started calling me Burger. I played along. "Okay, I'll get a burger. I'll eat a burger." Later on, unbeknownst to anybody, I had an issue with the name I was given at birth. So I would rather be called Burger than by that birth name. "Just call me burger." For the next twenty years, that was my name. Everybody called me Burger. Now my name is Becky. I finally shed the name Burger.

haha this revive is so hilarious and infuriating. surely all we need is conspiracy theorist methodology to investigate gender and sexuality! good work lorax.

In 1967 the CIA issued a memorandum calling for mainstream media sources to begin countering "conspiracy theorists". In the 45 years before this memo, the phrase "conspiracy theory" appeared in the Washington Post and New York Times only 50 times, or about once per year. In the 45 years after the CIA memo, the phrase appeared 2,630 times, or about once per week. The phrase "conspiracy theorist" wasn't used by these publication prior to the memo. After the memo came out these two newspapers have used that phrase 1,118 times. Of course, in these uses the phrase is always delivered in a context in which "conspiracy theorists" were made to seem less inteligent and less rational than people who uncritically accept official explanations for major events.

In many cases, W. Bush and his colleagues used the phrase conspiracy theory in attempts to deter questioning about their activities, activities that he was guilty of. Like flashing subliminal messages in his campaign advertisements. Or when his former company was linked to fraudulent Bank of Credit and Commerce International through several investors. After 9/11 Bush said in a televised speech "let us not tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th". It worked. The leaders of the 9/11 Commission, Thomas Kean and Lee Hamilton, said "we were set up to fail". Hamilton went on to say that the Commission faced too many questions, too little funding, and too little time.

Elmo, case in point, you are no better than awful politicians and deceptive media giants when you mean to belittle me with your conspiracy theory comment.

aaahahahahahaha

case in point, indeed.

so you're saying transppl did 9/11?

"Everybody called me Burger. Now my name is Becky. I finally shed the name Burger."
I hope this was said with a tinge of regret rather than relief, because Burger is an awesome name.

I first read that as "I finally sheed" (lost seussian word for becoming a female)

that burger story is disgusting

i feel like it must be fake. who the hell would put a piece of beef in a drawer and then come back and eat it tomorrow? i'm surprised they didn't die of e coli after the first week.

lorax i think what is offensive to many people is that you would reduce something so personal, complex and culturally overdetermined as sexual preference or gender orientation to cod-quantitative "data points"

I've never seen a fast food hamburger that wasn't rock hard and inedible after ~12 hours.

like your data points are not some bullshit survey like "rank your job satisfaction 1-5"

this is something that's been actively used to pathologize, oppress and marginalize groups of people even up to the present day

what's next, you're going to start an interesting "what if?" theoretical thread on physiognomy?

it's kind of weird that "burger" was the gender neutral pit stop, since the only burger role model around is mayor mccheese who definitely presents as male.

furburger

Have you ever seen a gendered burger?

lorax: it seems reasonable to ask whether biological gender, experiential gender and sexual orientation are related, and if so how; and beyond all that, how we might begin to answer or even examine such questions in the first place.

otoh, it's less than reasonable to simply assert an opinion without apparent theoretical or factual support while suggesting that those who believe otherwise lack adequate scientific support for their position. and once you've admitted that you failed to explain yourself coherently, you won't earn much sympathy complaining about the fact that you've been misinterpreted.

either get your posting together, or drop it.

The thing is, there have been academic attempts to quantify this kind of human experience as data, as far back as Masters and Johnson - The Kinsey Scale, the Klein Sexual Orientation Grid and there have even been attempts to map that onto different concepts of gender (and there's also been a whole history of this kind of thing being problematic for many reasons.)

The problem is not trying to take a scientific or even quantitative approach to human sexuality and gender - the problem is acting like a drunken fool on a messageboard without having even done the most basic of research.

Have you ever thought out loud some random theory? I do it all the time. You gotta start somewhere. Imagine a bunch of stoners in a circle sharing some crazy ideas. Then some nerd comes in and is like "you should shut your mouth because you haven't done any research". Is that fair? Is ILX a place where people can openly discuss ideas that pop into their head or should that idea be TSAed every which way before it can be uttered? Why say anything at all? Google would be a lot more informative than a bunch of strangers. I didn't come here posting questions in attempt at finding a universal answer. I came here to discuss the idea in itself. And no, I wasn't looking for a one-sided discussion.

XP to Contenderizer

"otoh, it's less than reasonable to simply assert an opinion without apparent theoretical or factual support while suggesting that those who believe otherwise lack adequate scientific support for their position."

And that is exactly what I thought when I got the answer to my question: "No, they are mutually exclusive" - a belief without apparent theoretical or factual support. At that point I took the opposite stance in hopes of opening the discussion.

The jig is up contenderiser. People share their editorial comments all the time. If they had to be labeled, opinions like the ones discussed last night might be described as a hunch or a belief. I'm not going to crucify someone for their beliefs or hunches, but I do like to discuss them sometimes.

"...and once you've admitted that you failed to explain yourself coherently, you won't earn much sympathy complaining about the fact that you've been misinterpreted."

I'm sorry that you thought I was complaining or looking for sympathy on that matter. What you call complaining, I call 'vocally' accepting that I'm incoherrent and wrong at times so as to better clarify myself.

"either get your posting together, or drop it"

I'm on the level. I'm sorry if you are upset because you think otherwise.

XP to Late the Great

"lorax i think what is offensive to many people is that you would reduce something so personal, complex and culturally overdetermined as sexual preference or gender orientation to cod-quantitative 'data points'"

Yes I need to remember that this isn't a group of stoners or data miners but a group of strangers. Also, if I was more coherrent innitially then maybe the open discussion would have taken us to better places.

If it's not too late I would like to give a shout-out to all my adrogynous home fryz on the east coast being all sexy with your pixie hairdos making me feel ill. Ah fuck it. It's too late

Imagine a bunch of stoners in a circle sharing some crazy ideas. Then some nerd comes in and is like "you should shut your mouth because you haven't done any research". Is that fair?

Yes.

It would also be fair to ditch debbie downer

Hey, a nerd can interject his mind all he wants but as soon as he gets all "shut your mouth" about it or starts spreading some bad voodoo then it's time to send him packing

Imagine a bunch of nerds sitting in a circle. Then some data stoner comes in and is like "CRAZY IDEAS CRAZY IDEAS CRAZY IDEAS".

what if the nerd is a trans or queer person saying “please don’t speak about my actual lived experiences without doing any research about it”? what a debbie downer!

pssst i heard debbie downer used to be a danny downer

adam and eve not adam and debbie

dominique downer

imagine an imaginary idiot and then let him infuriate you.

its not very nice to call lorax imaginary

imagine an imaginary idiot

tautological! demerit!

can we bring back the thing where we start threads that take the form 'ban (poster name)'

be the change you wish to see etc.

i saw a trannie with the hottest ass EVER the other day
― JaXoN (JasonD), Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:55 AM (7 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

what if the nerd is a trans or queer person saying “please don’t speak about my actual lived experiences without doing any research about it”? what a debbie downer!

― staethyr,

tell me, what did I speak about the actual lived experience of trans people?

if people are getting infuriated at me, can you please do me the courtesy of telling me why?

it's because you are babbling about shit you clearly don't know a goddamn thing about and acting like that just because you come up with ~radical ideas~ about gender and sexuality while drunk you deserve the deference due a great scientific thinker

and how am I acting like that? how does one act like they deserve deference?

I do not have the patience to explain your malfunctions to you in detail; have a nice evening.

whatever

lorax you implied (maybe just for theory's sake) gay men were less male than straight men

do you think if you proposed on a different thread that white people who are attracted to non-white people were less white than other white people yr fellow ilxors would not be weirded out by your whole line of questioning?

the jig is up

Yes I need to remember that this isn't a group of stoners or data miners but a group of strangers. a bunch of straight white guys where I can just be all privileged and shit.

lorax you implied (maybe just for theory's sake) gay men were less male than straight men

― teh late great

I'm not sure how I did that. Please point out exactly where I implied this so I can explain myself