Occupy Wall Street 3: Now What?

basically people get mad at cops being terrible, then eventually they get bored and go home.

this is a thing that happens all the time.

that's it

ok, that was basically the point i was trying to make? it's not a winning strategy or inspiring to me

except your point was "to me the whole initial promise of the protests was rooted in the way they were trying to do things differently, so that for example you had people of all ages, families with small children, etc. attending protests and expressing their grievances with how things have come to be".

but really, initially, people started to protest because of the cops to begin with.

What are you talking about, it's totally a winning strategy...for the cops.

I understand where del is coming from, but if the cops won't let you assemble than what you're protesting becomes moot

right but all the attacking cops in the world is not going to change that. unless you're pushing to make the police forces use increasingly more outrageous tactics and create martyrs and stuff i guess. but even then, who cares? people will write songs about it and some marginal media outlets will be in an uproar about it, but ultimately those divisive tactics are pointless. which again, is what i thought the initial genius of the strategy of ows was-- everyone, left-identified, right-identified, whatever identity-politics that you align with is being fucked over. plus we have huge amounts of youth that are graduating from college and are looking at a bleak economic future, the baby boomers are feeling this massive weight, everyone is. it's even, as silly as it sounds to invoke, something of a mythically or at least popular culturally apocalyptic year on our calendar. with a presidential election happening which involves increasingly surreal bullshit as usual plus the republicans being batshit-insane in ways that even their traditionally staunchest supporters are starting to question. and all that stuff in europe. y'know that stuff.

so i just mean it's sad to me if this keeps devolving into "fuck the cops", chicago seven redux. "us vs them" i wish would be shunted off. like, the mythical one percent are not these cartoonish mr burns types. they are miserable in their own way. (ok, so maybe they are mr. burns types). so in the same way that hyper-capitalism is in a process of dying, the orig vision of ows gave me hope that the old models of protest would be dying.

fyi this happened more than once this past weekend in chicago afa

well, that's awesome. i am just thinking of like, a may day protest here in philly were ppl were trying to block a wells fargo atm on walnut st. in center city. i mean, i don't know if it succeeded in doing really anything except decreasing sympathy for purported ows ideals.

like, it happened on a corridor that is already just a really crazy chaotic kinda angry place to be at that time of day on a weekday. and people found themselves on their lunch breaks and trying to do banking so that they could pay their bills or get cash for later in the day or whatever, but instead confronted with the feeling that THEY were somehow the targets of these protests. plus all the re-routing of traffic etc. it was a mess. this is an angry enough city w/o riling up people for all the wrong reasons. it just seemed so ill-thought out.

i mean if you think of all of the factors that were ripe here for addressing: how people have to scramble around to conduct business on their abbreviated lunch breaks, and maybe need to go to their own banks' specific atm so they don't get gouged by fees for accessing their own money, how there is no room left in city budgets to fund public transportation, resulting in people getting caught in these ugly traffic situations during protests, how we all become so alienated from each other in daily life because so many conflicts ultimately point back to our insecurities around money and its meaning... but instead i think all that people here took away from it was an excuse to yell "get a job" at these kids who were interfering with them for simply trying to get through their tuesday afternoon w/o losing it

i feel the urge to yell "get a job" every time i see the protestors too

basically i'm saying that occupy was the same old protest as always just there hadn't been a bunch of protests since obama got elected and then eventually it just got ridiculous and so you had a protest which snowballed. there's nothing complicated here. every time there's a big protest people say it's new for some bs reason. and every time things fizzle people start blaming whoever's actually left protesting for "hijacking" things by basically doing what they'd always been doing, except momentarily joined by a bunch more people.

but again, on top of that, the whole reason ows escalated was *because* people wanted to protest against cops being shitty. and that only had a certain half-life. but to then blame people *still* protesting cops being shitty is sort of beyond.

and these nato protests are, from what i know, not even like an ows thing, just a protest against nato thing which, i mean fine, since lots of people have been doing ows and then also were involved in these nato protests, then... ? i dunno.

you guys are so damned condescending BTW (big hoos excepted), you're kind of making my points for me.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Monday, May 21, 2012 10:40 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

dude I asked you a serious question about whether you would be more receptive to people dressed up as clowns than in black bandanas if they were, say, barricading a bank door or blocking traffic. I was genuinely interested in your thoughts (although clearly the answer is "no"). maybe you think I'm being condescending, but I certainly wasn't trying to be, and in turn I think you're acting like a character out of "Love Me, I'm A Liberal". God forbid somebody should disobey your Peace Police rules at the next protest you attend, lest they be "neutralized".

so frustrating because I completely agree w/you about the ineffectiveness of a lot of militant posturing, I don't see where this disconnect is.

just as a quick aside, cohost & i chatted with a member of the chicago NLG about the NATO5 today; it turns out the rumors were correct--the no-knock warrants used to gain entry in the raid ~didn't even have a fuckin judges signature on it~

they're still in solitary. their next hearing is, iirc, 6/19

http://www.vof99.org/#!tune-in

sleeve the "condescending" comment was in response to this"

xxp yeah i understand why it didn't get used in the march, because it would be misread in the way that you did

― 1staethyr, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:38 AM (21 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

just the assumption that i "misread" some chant whose supposedly correct reading is evident to some tiny fraction of protest insiders.

i mean saying i "misread" something before deigning to explain how it _should_ be read (as if it were supposed to be obvious) is pretty condescending, which is why i rasied the media-studies analogy of teachers who patronize their students for not instantly grasping these "queer readings" of major motion pictures.

i really don't know how to respond to your hypothetical about a "clown bloc." clown costumes can be kind of off-putting and menacing. why not just wear jeans and sweats or whatever you'd wear otherwise when you're engaging in protest? i guess i just don't really get your question, sorry...

and i think the clown costumes would probably just make people feel that there was some arcane joke that they weren't being let in on....

May 1 in NYC there were guys in Tax Dodgers baseball uniforms w/ a Mr Moneybags guy toting stuffed burlap $ack$. Is that acceptable street theatre?

http://media.metronews.topscms.com/images/b4/ec/5da6d1634cb7bed3049979a0e6fd.jpg

and i think the clown costumes would probably just make people feel that there was some arcane joke that they weren't being let in on....

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Wednesday, May 23, 2012 3:13 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i mean come on man

the "joke" is that THEY ARE CLOWNS

willing to press back against riot shields, or so they'd claimed in advance

like, no, you don't "need" to be in costume for any of this stuff necessarily but given the fact that people who resist police violence wind up being the target of same once they're isolated from their fellow-travelers, it certainly helps to work to anonymize yourself. i've seen people who didn't wear masks holding lines at riot shields get snatched up walking down the street hours later, and concealing one's identity is in that respect not only necessary for personal safety but empowering because one no longer need fear absurd police reprisal.

and please don't use my phraseology here to argue that i'm somehow imagining that scuffles with stormtroopers will overturn capitalism, because that's not my point, and i'd rather not see this go down that road again.

hey look, billo put us on the tv

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/index.html

tax dodgers is hilarious

(sorry am if i got aggro on you i just gotta push back some and i can't always push back daisies, its all love though)

tax dodgers is hilarious

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, May 22, 2012 11:45 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

http://thejazzemporium.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/6a00d8341bf90553ef01543259f538970c-800wi.jpg

clown bloc wasn't a hypothetical btw, it exists and was in chicago this past week, although i only saw a few of them on sunday.

for sure for sure, just voicing long-distance disappointment cause i'd hoped they'd make a bigger splash in the media & appearances on twitter seemed minimal. effect on the ground is def more immediately important than anybody else running with it, i think. glad to hear they were a presence.

Street theater makes it look like people are there to have fun, kill time, and have some good pictures to upload to the internet. Reminds me of when I dated a girl who went to a richy rich private school ... her friends had just gotten back from a protest in NYC and passed around photos of their goofy ass costumes and talking about what a great experience it was. Of course one vague personal memory doesn't make reality, but that's just the vibe I get when I see stuff like this. Hard to take seriously, I guess.

i really don't know how to respond to your hypothetical about a "clown bloc." clown costumes can be kind of off-putting and menacing.

http://www.the1stfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Insane-Clown-Posse.jpg

^^ worst. clown. bloc. ever.

Hard to take seriously, I guess.

― Spectrum, Wednesday, May 23, 2012 10:14 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Just so I understand--you're saying you think street theater does a disservice to the seriousness of the weighty issues under consideration because people appear to be having fun? And people should not appear to be having self-indulgent fun around Serious Demonstrations About Serious Things?

Well, yeah, I do. It may not be true in all cases, or in any case (no info), but you see them havin' a blast and that's their most visible motivation: carousing, carrying on, etc. Then apply it to the experience I'm sure a lot of us have had of the fair-weather activist, bandwagoners, etc., which just comes from the natural human motivation of: me.

Most of what I see of OWS are people posting dramatic pictures of themselves in a "I was a part of this!" kinda way. And people are inherently seflish most of the time, so you figure people are doing this for themselves more than other people, in a direct *now* fashion (part of the moment, lookin good, etc.) as opposed to the intangible vague abstraction of "fixing the problems".

I'm sure there are some true altruists out there who are probably doing better things with their time, but when you see people indulging in the heady me-ness of it, it's hard not to think the motivation is less than selfless, especially when a lot of these people probably have no direct stake in the outcome of these protests(vague and distant abstractions don't match the fact that most of the college kids will probably do fairly well when they decide to focus on their careers even if things kinda suck now).

So, a person of average experiene with average insight will probably look at street theater and think these are bunch of college kids having a vacation, as opposed to serious reformers. Wouldn't blame 'em either.

serious reformers are always going to be a small group. the rabble are a softening agent.

hey occupiers i just saw on Fox News that y'all are out of control and Dennis Miller has some thoughts on this issue that he'll give tonight.

this pic is lolhueg so linked only http://cryptome.org/chicago-nato-protest-hr.jpg

and these nato protests are, from what i know, not even like an ows thing, just a protest against nato thing which, i mean fine, since lots of people have been doing ows and then also were involved in these nato protests, then... ? i dunno.

― s.clover, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:49 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

afaik the angle my friends in the dc contingent took was 'don't wage perpetual war just cause its profitable for private military contractors,' cf the recent long-time-coming removal of private foreign contractors from the battlefield in afghanistan.

the protests would have happened with or without OWS def as there are always mass mobilizations at G8 and/or NATO meetings when they happen elsewhere and this fits squarely in that "global justice movement" tradition

i told a few folks back when i thought i was going that it'd be a great opportunity for newer ows-era organizers to hook up with and learn lessons from people who've been summit hopping for more than a decade.

this is kind of long and i don't imagine everyone will want to read it and perhaps even fewer will care for what it says, seeing as its written from 'inside' the framework that black bloc was born out of and its sort of intended to be talking to people who operate within that framework, but just for reference sake

http://www.facebook.com/notes/malcolm-harris/black-bloc-red-square/10150906316877940

and obv my linking does not connote endorsement or condemnation, just putting it here

you are what you link, Hoos

btw for people who don't want to click the link, dude is essentially arguing that black blocs are played out and its time to move on, advocates adopting the GGI red square as a malleable symbol with room for many, as "occupy" was throughout the fall.

i want to stress btw that imo "occupy" as such is a dead thing, it's a brand name past its expiration date, and i'm looking forward to issue-based organizing and campaigns that don't have to deal with the ghosts of last fall.

ows is the new MCI-Worldcom

and these nato protests are, from what i know, not even like an ows thing, just a protest against nato thing which, i mean fine, since lots of people have been doing ows and then also were involved in these nato protests, then... ? i dunno.
― s.clover, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 9:49 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

http://www.salon.com/2012/05/23/the_nato_industrial_complex/

hoos, i was basically just trying to make the point above that these protests would have happened with or w/o occupy. also during occupy "proper" (say, until they cleared out zucotti or so), it was very much a minority thing to be talking about NATO or the military or u.s. occupations of anywhere at all. the hostility towards it was typically couched as being against trying to hijack it back into the played out antiwar movement or something. so lolirony.

ah yes

we tore down the library today

i wrote a thing about it cause that's how i deal with this kind of shit

it was hard

was just informed e-thuggin 5t0rmfr0nt dudes are describing me as an "anti-white terrorist" because i'm one of a couple dozen people following a twitter account sending out updates on the tinley park 5, those ARA people who went ham with bats on that supremacist meeting outside chicago before nato.

supremo's tryin to dox the people they posted, me included. there's now a retaliatory anon raid happening on 5t0rmfr0nt "to defend our family from fascists"

<3

...dox?

denial of xervice?

dox
Personal information about people on the Internet, often including real name, known aliases, address, phone number, SSN, credit card number, etc.

"Someone dropped Bob's dox and the next day, ten pizzas and three tow trucks showed up at his house."

lulz owned hacker social engineering ruin

as in, "documents"

i've gotten so accustomed to thinking of Anonymous as being "on our side" that the thought of fascist hackers sorta blew my mind.

but like the iranian revolutionary guard has a hacker regiment now iirc