Kenny Dalglish Won't Be Delivering the Module: English Premiership 2011-12

not sure john henry is ready to get sexted

rangnick too if he's not still knackered

this is from after hodgson left for whatever its worth:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/9337980.stmi

European scout Tor-Kristian Karlsen said on his Twitter feed that Borussia Dortmund manager Jurgen Klopp had been approached about the Liverpool job and that Rangnick was also a candidate.

cant help hearing ralf rangnick to the tune of rowche rumble

i could see henry even getting one of these cunts

not klopp tho

I've been meaning to ask for a while and now's as good a time as any - what on earth led Arsenal to go for Wenger in 1996? I know he'd done well at Monaco, but that was years previously.

― Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 16 May 2012 18:16 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

dein was a personal friend of wenger

also he hadnt exactly gone to pasture, he went to japan for the cash

― navihchkan (nakhchivan), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 18:18 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

maybe better qn would be why wenger went to the kicknrush provincial wasteland that was mid90s epl

― navihchkan (nakhchivan), Wednesday, 16 May 2012 18:19 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

when pundits trot out the "look at fergie, look at wenger, clubs need stability and to stick with their manager" spiel I always think of arsenal deciding to stick with rioch instead of going for wenger.

― pandemic, Wednesday, 16 May 2012 18:28 (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

When something was obviously going wrong in France, Wenger was scouted by a ton of clubs - he nearly ended up at Spurs in 1994! But they went for Gerry Francis instead. David Dein also started being interested at the time but going through the Graham bung thing, didn't want to upset fans by going all foreign (lol) while Wenger wanted a holiday from European football after the Monaco*. They continued talking while Arsene went to Japan and Wenger knew his seat was just being warmed because Dein bought players for him - Rioch may have been there when it happened but Vieira and the first few French players were Wenger recommendations (he may have even tipped Dein off that Bergkamp was available, reports conflict.) It was a decision made two years before he came, basically. And he didn't come just two the dour football of before, but an underperforming team involving Bergkamp, Platt, Vieira and was immediately told he could sell off trouble-makers like Merson to fund Overmars/Petit etc.

*as well as the marseille match fixing scam, there were incidents like http://arsespeak.com/2011/02/21/can-wenger-win-champions-league-arsenal-understanding-arsene-europe-lens-as-monaco-vs-werder-bremen-cup-winners%E2%80%99-cup-final-1992/

feeling better about this now. impression i get is that fsg want someone with a longterm vision who will truly buy into the academy/promote from within thing. that's what i hope anyway. if we're serious about ever challenging for the title again (not giving up hope just yet) and getting into the champions league and staying there then we have to be clever about how we go about it. i'm not an expert on the bundesliga but i believe dortmund did something similar?

anyway, sad that it ended like this for kenny, but perhaps it's for for the best. sounds cheesy but he really did unite the fans - waking up and finding out he'd come back was just magic. he won us a trophy and got us playing some lovely football, filled us all with real optimism. love ya kenny.

― Chris, Thursday, 17 May 2012 01:04 (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Dortmund did do something similar. They could do it with no expectations for success hanging over their neck (having recently survived a bankruptcy scare, it was also their only option to start from the youth team) and not much in terms of league competition. Only an underperforming Bayern team. As a supporter of a team trying to do this in England, arguably five years ahead of Liverpool in terms of acting this way, I can say it will be absurdly hard work for this to happen at Liverpool. First, Arsenal fans aren't as passionate or hot-headed as the Kop. Mistakes - pretty big ones too - will be made, no matter how good the manager is, and the Kop will react. Secondly, you don't have Messi's to overcompensate for your Cuenca's. Third, it is just as likely that the team go through Boro's path as Dortmund's if that youth team is more Spearings and El Zhars. Just one Adam Johnson in the pack won't help an academy of Championship players.

I'm a little encouraged by the noises about what they're looking for - league-winning experience, plus readiness to carry out a project that has to be measured in many years - though it doesn't exactly throw out names. Klopp and Deschamps fit that; Villas Boas and de Boer probably don't.

Anyone else out there? Rijkaard's star has faded, Guardiola and Mourinho are obvious noes, Capello and Ancelotti are too old, the usual Dutch suspects like van Gaal and Advocaat too uninspiring.

I wonder if Deschamps is who they have in mind? He's bloody-minded enough certainly; but his teams lack a bit of stardust is my impression, and no idea how he is on youth development.

Ancelotti's younger than I thought (52) but probably not young enough. He carries himself with that kind of authority, it fools you. Committed to another long project anyway.

I also forget that Chelsea are supposedly looking in exactly the same market. I'd like to think Liverpool's the more attractive option for these guys, but that may not be so.

Chelsea > Liverpool. At least they has a talented young group to build around.

They've zero chance of getting Klopp imo. He wants a shot at the CL and a shot at a dynasty with this Dortmund team.

di matteo...

Dortmund did do something similar. They could do it with no expectations for success hanging over their neck (having recently survived a bankruptcy scare, it was also their only option to start from the youth team) and not much in terms of league competition. Only an underperforming Bayern team. As a supporter of a team trying to do this in England, arguably five years ahead of Liverpool in terms of acting this way, I can say it will be absurdly hard work for this to happen at Liverpool. First, Arsenal fans aren't as passionate or hot-headed as the Kop. Mistakes - pretty big ones too - will be made, no matter how good the manager is, and the Kop will react. Secondly, you don't have Messi's to overcompensate for your Cuenca's. Third, it is just as likely that the team go through Boro's path as Dortmund's if that youth team is more Spearings and El Zhars. Just one Adam Johnson in the pack won't help an academy of Championship players.

you really would commit suicide if this worked, presumably the vague moral high ground is all certain teams have.

i think the kop has more than demonstrated that it will cheer on ever stupider mistakes as long as they're being made by the right person.

the word "mistake" could mean literally anything in a football context.

or nothing

ya, v true

also i reckon lfc fans have pretty low expectations right now. a few crappy seasons in a row.

i dunno man, lowered expectations perhaps but i can't see them accepting another league season as weak as this one

yeah perhaps... i think a strong 5th or 6th would prob be accepted tho. depending on how much dosh is spent/wasted by a new boss.

what they're looking for - league-winning experience, plus readiness to carry out a project that has to be measured in many years - though it doesn't exactly throw out names. Klopp and Deschamps fit that; Villas Boas and de Boer probably don't.

Wasn't that exactly what Villas Boas was supposed to bring to Chelsea? The feeling, before it all went seriously wrong, was that he would pull them through to the summer then clear out all the Old Guard TM and build a younger team for the long haul.

yeah i don't think there'll be much assumption that a top 4 is there for the taking. but whoever comes in is gonna have to show progress reasonably sharpish.

I don't think a strong 5th or 6th for Liverpool is too difficult a task for a decent manager. Assuming (possibly incorrectly) that Newcastle won't repeat this season that only leaves Everton to overhaul. I can't see anyonw from Fulham down making a serious case for the top six.

i don't think there's much reason yet to assume that Newcastle or Everton will be weaker next season

I don't think it's beyond Liverpool to improve enough turn these home draws into wins:
Sunderland 1-1, Norwich 1-1, Swansea 0-0, Stoke 0-0, Villa 1-1

That's 10 points dropped there that would have put them above Newcastle.

fifth isn't achievable next year imo. sixth yes, but isn't that probably the bare minimum tbh? i'm not sure there's margin, placement-wise (tho there'll likely be a decent points gap, don't expect newcastle to show again)

5th/6th doesn't really matter other than to show enough of an improvement to justify replacing Kenny. The real aim for anyone spending Carroll level money is the Champs League and that would require too many other teams to fall off at the same time as a 10-14pt improvement from Liverpool. You really do need owners to accept it'll take 2-3 years and will still be really fucking difficult.

chelsea won't finish outside the top 4 again, so a lot depends on spurs/arsenal's transfer window.

Utd are the only team i can see being easily dislodged from the cl spots.

agree with most of onimo's points. a general sense of consistency would be a start, or sorting out the home form.

There's next to nothing to choose between Arsenal, Spurs & Chelsea imo. I don't expect Newcastle to be at that level, nor Everton.

The question is therefore: can Liverpool get from the latter group into the former? I really don't think the jump is too big to make in one year - it feels lame to point it out, but an awful lot this year hinged on shots hitting the woodwork and being unable to make draws into wins. These are fine margins, I don't think it's projecting to say that even one single player, namely a dead-eyed finisher, could've yielded an extra dozen points or even more.

Owen gone

RIP

The two obvious flaws in what I say are:

• more likely that Arsenal, Chelsea and perhaps Spurs will all have much better seasons next year; possibly none of this year's performances would've been good enough for top four next; and
• I don't think this year's Liverpool were in a trough all season; it's not inconceivable that everyone bar the forwards and Reina will be worse next season, especially if Lucas takes a long time to return.

That important goal will have to wait to next year. Talking of dead eyed finishers, I'm worried now IK.

Haha. He's only 32. So he's been at Utd since he was in his twenties!

awesome, looking forward to the summer 2012 edition of his brochure

"FACT: Michael Owen is a Grade B listed building with original neo-Georgian features, offering stunning views of Alderley Edge and close to local amenities"

"FACT: Timeshare opportunities in Michael Owen have never been more affordable"

IK, it is, in fact, pretty lame to point to the woodwork. Spurs have dominated teams all season without putting them to sword, and it's actually Arsenal's MO tbh, so idk that there's a dozen points waiting to be claimed there in any bish bosh boosh fashion.

Newcastle have an easier task in re-inforcing their squad than lfc have in somehow getting another twenty goals from their first team imo

huge chance of newcastle bombing next year imo.

yes, a chance, but it's not that easy a call.

i don't suppose we should lock this thread til final whistle of the cl, seeing as that decides 'fourth spot'- but this is v much dependent on transfer window activity.

Well yeah, but my point is just that there's low-hanging fruit there even without a massive overhaul - it's not like we've only just scraped 52 points or whatever it was. Fully accept the same holds true for the other sides except Newcastle. Even for Everton, conceivably, given how they took so long to get going.

and now have a striker

yeah i think ik is largely saying liverpool underachieved, they should have done at least a little better, even with the probs in some areas of the team.

Basically - though definitely not saying that squad can't do the same or worse, left to its own devices.

more likely that Arsenal, Chelsea and perhaps Spurs will all have much better seasons next year; possibly none of this year's performances would've been good enough for top four next

70, 64 and 69pts respectively? 67.9pts is the average for 4th-placed finishers over the last ten seasons. Not sure anyone with 69-70pts has ever finished as low as 5th in the Prem era (certainly not in the top-four-into CL era). So, y'know, they weren't poor.

You'd hope Liverpool (and Everton, for that matter - add Jelavic to the first half of 11-12 and where do we finish?) would clock low-mid 60s minimum.
xxxp

city, utd, arsenal, spurs, chelsea- many fans of each of these clubs will feel they have underachieved

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Mike, did you calculate that 67.9 figure yourself on the basis of research and making notes on a little pad?

Owen for Everton
Dalglish for Villa
AVB for WBA
Di Matteo for LFC
Benitez for CFC

so many vacancies at the moment!

Fair point Michael xps - they can certainly all play better, I'd argue, but it's easy to lose sight of how effectively Arsenal in particular turned it into cold hard points.

Yep. It's a displacement activity on a stressful morning.

xxp