at least as formulated in 2009 by slate. maybe the argument has picked up a little sophistication since then:http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2009/05/i_want_to_gop_to_there.html
― Mordy, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:29 (twelve years ago) link
totally
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:30 (twelve years ago) link
i dont think its "secret"! and i dont think its "conservative" like mitt romney is conservative. i think liz is as much a punching bag as jack is, and i think it hits harder b/c her politics and character are much less cartoonish [and also because presumably the audience hews closer to liz than to jack].
i mean the show does kind of show a continued disregard for what might be uncharitably described as "identity politics" -- i think this is something that hurting is getting at when he wonders if its racist -- & to me thats a conservative position, even if its not about flat taxes or anything
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:31 (twelve years ago) link
it seems to me like the show's creative team just knows that being as stridently left as Alec Baldwin is as a public figure would be a total comedy killer and so they try to get laughs out of both sides of an issue whenever possible
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:32 (twelve years ago) link
liz is a punching bag but not even half as much in a politically pointed way as with jack
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:33 (twelve years ago) link
i mean, there are more jokes about him loving Reagan there are about her loving anything besides sandwiches or Star Wars
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:34 (twelve years ago) link
THAN there are
right but jokes about him "loving Reagan" are only "political" on the surface -- theyre not critiques of an ideology or political stance or platform
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:35 (twelve years ago) link
sure no but i'm just saying his character is defined by his political beliefs far more than hers
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:36 (twelve years ago) link
can't recall Liz espousing a political position of any kind tbh.
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:36 (twelve years ago) link
some dude OTM
Jack's rightwing politics are part and parcel of his persona as a powerful white man. Liz's politics are nonexistent.
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:37 (twelve years ago) link
and a LOT of his throwaway lines are more cutting jokes at the expense of the GOP than a whole season's worth of SNL fox news sketches. (xpost)
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:37 (twelve years ago) link
i mean its possible that i am such a wussy bourgeois liberal that i consider "getting jokes out of both sides of an issue" a kind of inherently conservative gesture. like i said it doesnt *bother* me. i still think its the funniest show on tv!
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:37 (twelve years ago) link
yeah i guess my sense is that making fun of the crazies in the GOP barely counts as "political humor" at this point. also youre crazy if you think liz's politics are "nonexistent" -- shes explicitly and clearly a liberal feminist. i mean this comes up super frequently, its part of the jack-liz relationship.
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:38 (twelve years ago) link
haha are you coming out as a closet West Wing fan (xpost)
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:38 (twelve years ago) link
that slate piece is pretty good, really, especially in how it characterizes the show's relationship to feminism and gender (not to liberal politics in general).
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:40 (twelve years ago) link
like i guess when i watch the show jokes at jack's expense are more often than not these kind of cartoonish "crazy tea partiers!" jokes that dont really touch on the ideology at the heart of the modern GOP. whereas the jokes at liz's expense are actual critiques of her "liberal values" -- i.e. the 'equality' episode
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:40 (twelve years ago) link
i think a lot of Donaghy lines are slightly more specific than "lol greed is good amirite" but fair enough
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:41 (twelve years ago) link
xp - that in turn suggests that the show takes liberalism seriously and only sees conservatism as a crazy sort of joke
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:42 (twelve years ago) link
when Jack 'wins' an argument with Liz it's because the company that made her great jeans is secretly owned by Haliburton and the joke's on her, not that Haliburton is actually awesome and she shouldn't be chagrinned by that
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:42 (twelve years ago) link
yeah, i mean i dont think that 30 rock gives jack, or conservatism, a pass
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:43 (twelve years ago) link
how about the ep a few years ago with carrie fisher? seems impt to this discussion.
donaghy is slightly cartoonish but his, idk, para-political identity as a competent, hard-driving self-made executive is not really undercut ever, and liz's (and others) characters objectives bend around that
xps
― goole, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:44 (twelve years ago) link
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, May 14, 2012 4:42 PM (54 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
right but this is one of the oldest conservative zingers in the book! like that occupy wall street photo with all the arrows pointing out that they bought their clothes at the gap or whatever.
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:44 (twelve years ago) link
“We have been creating and solving this country’s problems for 200 years. Where’s our history month?”
― judas, a homo (elmo argonaut), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:45 (twelve years ago) link
i thought that joke where the baby kept saying 'mommy' and jack kept thinking she was saying 'money' was pretty lol
― Mordy, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:45 (twelve years ago) link
I think that Slate piece is sort of right but maybe runs a little too far with the argument.
― this guy's a gangsta? his real name's mittens. (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:46 (twelve years ago) link
its also kinda whiny. the slate piece.
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:47 (twelve years ago) link
one of the show's running jokes is the way kenneth's aw-shucks, god-fearin' nice guy shtick occasionally lets slip a whiff of fascist intolerance. and jack is constantly making throwaway jokes about ostensibly trivial environmental and human consequences. american conservatism on 30 rock is a stupid, monstrous lie, a con that rich people use to get their way and manipulate rubes. liberalism, otoh, is a complex philosophy that decent, intelligent people struggle with in actually trying to negotiate life.
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:47 (twelve years ago) link
Liz's politics seem more like a satire of lazy kneejerk liberalism or liberals with latent prejudiced and/or conservative beliefs than an actual "no really check out this dumb lib" kinda thing imo.
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:47 (twelve years ago) link
coincidentally the new inquiry had an essay a couple days ago about 30 rock/tina fey and women/feminism
http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/the-unfuckables/
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:48 (twelve years ago) link
like the famous "will say i'm voting for obama and then vote for mccain" line is liz in a nutshell
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:49 (twelve years ago) link
i'm probably the worst person to say this but sometimes you can outthink yourself on something like this and i think that's what the 30 rock conservative argument is doing
― Mordy, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:50 (twelve years ago) link
Liz's "feminism" is basically limited to herself and how she thinks she deserves a job/respect/authority. I can't recall a single instance of her addressing an actual liberal cause like, say, being pro-choice or against the Iraq invasion or anti-global warming or whatever. Her worldview is completely myopic, it's a politics of narcissism.
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:52 (twelve years ago) link
idk about that article? i mean
She is currently in a Garnier Nutrisse shampoo commercial in which she tosses her glossy mane without a trace of irony.
the irony is that she's wearing a wig imho
― judas, a homo (elmo argonaut), Monday, 14 May 2012 21:01 (twelve years ago) link
to be clear im not endorsing the TNI article, presented w/out comment
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 21:02 (twelve years ago) link
Not on topic, but Laugh-in makes a return in the most recent live episode.
I agree--and this is where some of the sense of the shows conservativism comes from--but I suspect this is mostly a result of Tina Fey being more comfortable satyrizing herself.
sometimes you can outthink yourself on something like this and i think that's what the 30 rock conservative argument is doing
Nah, for me it's more of a vibe I get from the show, and my analysis has more to do with why I feel this way; is there something there, or is it just over-sensitivity on my part.
― He's sick of the Swiss. He don't like em. (Austerity Ponies), Monday, 14 May 2012 21:03 (twelve years ago) link
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, May 14, 2012 4:52 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Yeah, I think this is right. Her liberalism is very, very thin to begin with. Jack's politics are of course also a politics of narcissism and selfishness, it just so happens that Reagan conservatism openly embraces that kind of selfishness, so there's nothing inconsistent about him.
― this guy's a gangsta? his real name's mittens. (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 21:04 (twelve years ago) link
To me, Alec Baldwin's character is more or less the kind of guy that would hang out with Stephen Colbert's character. Just a bit more inside the bubble for narrative reasons.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 14 May 2012 21:05 (twelve years ago) link
30 Rock is one gourmet food montage short of a Nora Ephron movie
― Mordy, Monday, 14 May 2012 21:11 (twelve years ago) link
someone who has neither seen 30 Rock nor a Nora Ephron movie ^
― Mordy, Monday, 14 May 2012 21:12 (twelve years ago) link
yeah wait what
it might be a lil sexist and it might be a lil racist and it might be a lil conservative, but it is NOT ANYTHING LIKE a Nora Eprhon movie yeesh
― this guy's a gangsta? his real name's mittens. (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 21:12 (twelve years ago) link
calibrate the hamm blackface calibrate the hamm blackface calibrate the hamm blackface calibrate the hamm blackface calibrate the hamm blackface calibrate the hamm blackface calibrate the hamm blackface calibrate the hamm blackface
― (Name Withheld to Avoid Hassle) (forksclovetofu), Monday, 14 May 2012 21:13 (twelve years ago) link
Liz's "feminism" is basically limited to herself and how she thinks she deserves a job/respect/authority. I can't recall a single instance of her addressing an actual liberal cause like, say, being pro-choice or against the Iraq invasion or anti-global warming or whatever. Her worldview is completely myopic, it's a politics of narcissism.Correct. She always struck me as one of those irritating "I'm not like those OTHER girls" types, only without any awareness of this at all.
― gyac, Monday, 14 May 2012 21:13 (twelve years ago) link
even-keeled, virtuous, self-aware characters don't make good comedy
― judas, a homo (elmo argonaut), Monday, 14 May 2012 21:18 (twelve years ago) link
the TNI article make the valid point that there is something deeply conservative about tina fey's comic persona (both as liz lemon and otherwise). not politically conservative, exactly, but "personally conservative" maybe.
both tina and liz are "good" and "normal". they're smart and responsible people who know how to behave. they shun impropriety and gaucherie, priding themselves on their ability to make reasonable decisions and keep their lives in order. 30 rock clearly sees shares this sensibility, treating its less self-consciously "proper" and/or middle class characters as comic grotesques. it even mocks twofer for being too proper. there's only a very narrow cultural/social bandwidth in which 30 rock characters are allowed to exist in and still seem "normal". and the gauche behavior of abnormal people is constantly on instructive display: this is how not to be.
perhaps this kind of conservatism, the kind that patrols the boundary between "normalcy" and "weirdness" (and which should not be confused with political conservatism, though the two can definitely overlap), is an essential component of all comedy. i suppose that's true, but might still argue that 30 rock is more conservative in this sense than it really has to be.
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Monday, 14 May 2012 21:19 (twelve years ago) link
"[whatever it's other flaws] the TNI article does make..."
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Monday, 14 May 2012 21:20 (twelve years ago) link
i'm not saying we shouldn't hold tv shows to account, i just think criticizing sitcom characters for having exaggerated flaws is, well, maybe missing the point?
― judas, a homo (elmo argonaut), Monday, 14 May 2012 21:21 (twelve years ago) link
i just think criticizing sitcom characters for having exaggerated flaws is, well, maybe missing the point?
yeah, that's were i wound up. did want to point out that there's a kind of apolitical conservatism that's expressed fey's basic stance: "i am a decent person. i don't do drugs or sleep around. i wear normal boring clothes, like normal boring stuff and get to bed at a decent hour (and secretly think poor people are kind of gross and trashy hee)."
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Monday, 14 May 2012 21:26 (twelve years ago) link
"expressed in fey's basic stance..."