congrats, "Lutz is never funny" is officially the most rong thing anyone's said in this convo
i always try to bring my A game
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Monday, 14 May 2012 19:58 (twelve years ago) link
i could see twofer being outed as an AA recipient being a problem if twofer was invented as some kind of black role model like urkel was, but this isn't the case.
― Philip Nunez, Monday, 14 May 2012 19:59 (twelve years ago) link
30 Rock is probably the best-written thing on network television and I love it. Not saying it's not good on the whole.
― this guy's a gangsta? his real name's mittens. (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 19:59 (twelve years ago) link
i just think of 30 Rock on race as one of its strengths, not one of its weaknesses, even if there are a few jokes that have been sketchy or not worth the payoff
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:00 (twelve years ago) link
yeah i don't know why a show would have a plot point about Affirmative Action, it must mean it's a racist show, to talk about such a thing
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, May 14, 2012 3:58 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
No dude don't be obtuse. I mean it seems a little off to have one black person on the show who isn't either the comedian or his entourage, one black person with a "professional" job and then have it "revealed" that he got where he is because of affirmative action.
― this guy's a gangsta? his real name's mittens. (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:02 (twelve years ago) link
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3xj3lUQEH1r89jlvo2_500.png
― judas, a homo (elmo argonaut), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:02 (twelve years ago) link
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, May 14, 2012 3:58 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
well, i dunno, i dont think that whole episode was *racist* but i am kind of baffled as to why it had that plot point. like what point was it trying to make? seemed like pretty well-worn (& stupid) territory.
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:04 (twelve years ago) link
twofer was always an insufferable snob, and the show frequently made humor from subjecting him to costanza-esque abuses, like getting grammar-pwned by tracy in the first episode, finding his ancestor fought for the confederates, etc... in fact, if they did turn him into the respectable black straight man of the type that tim meadows would usually play on SNL, that would be way way worse in terms of comedic condescension.
― Philip Nunez, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:07 (twelve years ago) link
^^ gets it
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:08 (twelve years ago) link
also, comedy writer isn't exactly white collar aspirational professional position, like say head of fringe division. if agent broyles was revealed to be an AA beneficiary, THEN you'd have something.
― Philip Nunez, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:09 (twelve years ago) link
was the AA episode different from the liz/tracy 'equality' ep?
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:11 (twelve years ago) link
might have been
― this guy's a gangsta? his real name's mittens. (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:11 (twelve years ago) link
Tracy: Affirmative action was designed to keep women and minorities in competition with each other to distract us while white dudes inject AIDS into our chicken nuggets. That's a metaphor.
― judas, a homo (elmo argonaut), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:14 (twelve years ago) link
at least this thread is actually being used to discuss something that's not 100% clearly racist for once, i guess
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:14 (twelve years ago) link
that's from the pilot btw
― judas, a homo (elmo argonaut), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:15 (twelve years ago) link
I think the AA thing is more a LOL @ Conservatives than anything, given the context of the show. But I'd need to rewatch that particular ep to make a more informed opinion.
― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:16 (twelve years ago) link
heh, ive always thought that 30 rocks default political position was a kind of moderately conservative LOL @ liz's sad bourgeois liberalism. not gonna try to defend that necc but 30 rock always struck me as a conservative show -- not in a bad way necc.
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:18 (twelve years ago) link
that liz tracey equality episode was pretty stupid i thought. seems a little easier to talk about specific moments & subplots than the show as a whole -- i think its done stuff thats really cutting and smart and stuff thats, if not racist, not very well thought out
― max, Monday, May 14, 2012 2:57 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
^^^This. I think any comedy writing around race is going to have some failiures, and where these jokes fail, they're gonna stray into that territory where they can be perceived as racist. And I think it's fair game to call out those failiures. I think it makes sense to draw attention to specific instances, because, generally speaking, I would not accuse 30 Rock of being a racist show.
― He's sick of the Swiss. He don't like em. (Austerity Ponies), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:18 (twelve years ago) link
but 30 rock always struck me as a conservative show -- not in a bad way necc.
― max, Monday, May 14, 2012 4:18 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
yeah, I feel exactly the same way.
― this guy's a gangsta? his real name's mittens. (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:20 (twelve years ago) link
... really?
― judas, a homo (elmo argonaut), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:21 (twelve years ago) link
not arguing with you, i just don't get a conservative feel from it at all.
p nunez otm. it's a sensibility that shares something in common with what i think of as "british humor": the idea that it's especially hilarious to see characters who believe that they are noble (but who are actually quite petty) struggle to retain their dignity in the face of constant humiliation.
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:22 (twelve years ago) link
― judas, a homo (elmo argonaut), Monday, May 14, 2012 4:21 PM (54 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
yeah, if only because liz's liberalism is the butt of so many jokes.
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:23 (twelve years ago) link
LOL @ liz's sad bourgeois liberalism
I pick up on the conservative feel too, but I think the show is largely apolitical in that most of the political jokes make fun of the liberal and conservative characters' self-conceptions, and not the ideologies themselves.
― He's sick of the Swiss. He don't like em. (Austerity Ponies), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:24 (twelve years ago) link
i think the show does a good job of letting Jack get in some jabs against Liz and making her a a very flawed character and not Tina Fey's perfect Mary Sue alter ego, but also that it's pretty clear which one of them is a huge satirical punching bag for an entire political ideology
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:25 (twelve years ago) link
nick offerman is more seductive conservative hero than alec baldwin
― Philip Nunez, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:26 (twelve years ago) link
Yeah, conservative in a father-knows-best (with Alec Baldwin as father) kind of way. Conservative sort of the way Jane Austen is conservative (ultimately respectful and appreciative of the order of things) etc.
― this guy's a gangsta? his real name's mittens. (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:26 (twelve years ago) link
me either. i think the show has a sort of fond sympathy for what it see as the futility and hypocrisy of liberalism, but also an angry streak directed against the arrogance, dishonesty and abuses of conservative wealth & power (jack's constant self-zings). overall, i see it as politically disengaged - a portrait of how things are, rather than an argument that they should be any different.
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:28 (twelve years ago) link
i've always found the '30 Rock is secretly conservative meme' to be a little sub-Zizek sophistry
― Mordy, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:28 (twelve years ago) link
at least as formulated in 2009 by slate. maybe the argument has picked up a little sophistication since then:http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2009/05/i_want_to_gop_to_there.html
― Mordy, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:29 (twelve years ago) link
totally
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:30 (twelve years ago) link
i dont think its "secret"! and i dont think its "conservative" like mitt romney is conservative. i think liz is as much a punching bag as jack is, and i think it hits harder b/c her politics and character are much less cartoonish [and also because presumably the audience hews closer to liz than to jack].
i mean the show does kind of show a continued disregard for what might be uncharitably described as "identity politics" -- i think this is something that hurting is getting at when he wonders if its racist -- & to me thats a conservative position, even if its not about flat taxes or anything
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:31 (twelve years ago) link
it seems to me like the show's creative team just knows that being as stridently left as Alec Baldwin is as a public figure would be a total comedy killer and so they try to get laughs out of both sides of an issue whenever possible
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:32 (twelve years ago) link
liz is a punching bag but not even half as much in a politically pointed way as with jack
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:33 (twelve years ago) link
i mean, there are more jokes about him loving Reagan there are about her loving anything besides sandwiches or Star Wars
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:34 (twelve years ago) link
THAN there are
right but jokes about him "loving Reagan" are only "political" on the surface -- theyre not critiques of an ideology or political stance or platform
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:35 (twelve years ago) link
sure no but i'm just saying his character is defined by his political beliefs far more than hers
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:36 (twelve years ago) link
can't recall Liz espousing a political position of any kind tbh.
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:36 (twelve years ago) link
some dude OTM
Jack's rightwing politics are part and parcel of his persona as a powerful white man. Liz's politics are nonexistent.
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:37 (twelve years ago) link
and a LOT of his throwaway lines are more cutting jokes at the expense of the GOP than a whole season's worth of SNL fox news sketches. (xpost)
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:37 (twelve years ago) link
i mean its possible that i am such a wussy bourgeois liberal that i consider "getting jokes out of both sides of an issue" a kind of inherently conservative gesture. like i said it doesnt *bother* me. i still think its the funniest show on tv!
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:37 (twelve years ago) link
yeah i guess my sense is that making fun of the crazies in the GOP barely counts as "political humor" at this point. also youre crazy if you think liz's politics are "nonexistent" -- shes explicitly and clearly a liberal feminist. i mean this comes up super frequently, its part of the jack-liz relationship.
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:38 (twelve years ago) link
haha are you coming out as a closet West Wing fan (xpost)
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:38 (twelve years ago) link
that slate piece is pretty good, really, especially in how it characterizes the show's relationship to feminism and gender (not to liberal politics in general).
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:40 (twelve years ago) link
like i guess when i watch the show jokes at jack's expense are more often than not these kind of cartoonish "crazy tea partiers!" jokes that dont really touch on the ideology at the heart of the modern GOP. whereas the jokes at liz's expense are actual critiques of her "liberal values" -- i.e. the 'equality' episode
― max, Monday, 14 May 2012 20:40 (twelve years ago) link
i think a lot of Donaghy lines are slightly more specific than "lol greed is good amirite" but fair enough
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:41 (twelve years ago) link
xp - that in turn suggests that the show takes liberalism seriously and only sees conservatism as a crazy sort of joke
― The term or title antichrist, in Christian theology, refers to (contenderizer), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:42 (twelve years ago) link
when Jack 'wins' an argument with Liz it's because the company that made her great jeans is secretly owned by Haliburton and the joke's on her, not that Haliburton is actually awesome and she shouldn't be chagrinned by that
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, 14 May 2012 20:42 (twelve years ago) link