but that's not the paradigm Dunham's working in. the sex scene is horrible not because her "innocence" has been destroyed, as Laurel points out so well.
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:00 (twelve years ago) link
just to clarify, i'm not sympathizing at all with the innocence narrative which is i think is really destructive + terrible. i was just pointing out that it is often the way that ppl like Flanagan discuss the issue. and i'm not claiming that Dunham is doing that either. i kinda feel like maybe i didn't adequately explain myself in the above post...
― Mordy, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:01 (twelve years ago) link
but certainly if Flanagan was going to make a gritty show about how casual sex culture is destroying America she might have a scene where a guy threatens not to wear a condom during sex and tries to initiate anal sex without consent, and another character has a loving boyfriend she hates, and another character has lots of casual sex and winds up unintentionally pregnant.
― Mordy, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:04 (twelve years ago) link
okay now you sound like Bruni
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:06 (twelve years ago) link
women shouldn't make culture that reflects their point of view and experiences because caitlin flanagan is an asshole?
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:07 (twelve years ago) link
i don't know how you got that from what i said. i don't know how you could possible get any opinion from me about whether they should make the show or not from what i said, especially since i've already said that i think the show is really well made and very interesting + provocative, and that part of its value is in bringing up these issues for me.
― Mordy, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:08 (twelve years ago) link
i dont see how the character who hates her bf can be used to argue that casual sex is destroying america, you could easily use that to argue that committed relationships are destroying america
― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:08 (twelve years ago) link
i don't understand your point, Mordy
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:09 (twelve years ago) link
also we know next to nothing about the prego girl's situation at all at this point, a caitlin flanagan type could easily chastise this show for making it seem okay for a woman to get pregnant out of wedlock
― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:09 (twelve years ago) link
she'd certainly find a way to chastise the show because she hates women, but i think mordy's right that she would use it as evidence of how feminism has ruined young women's lives. but that's because she has only one idea and she says it about everything.
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:10 (twelve years ago) link
why are we even talking about caitlin flanagan
did you guys know that caitlin flanagans husband is the president of the barbie division of mattel
― max, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:11 (twelve years ago) link
we know that friend asked, "was it intentional?" and english girl said snarkily, "what do u think?"
i don't think the subtext of discussing this show needs to be 'should it be made or not?' i think that's pretty much the worst context to talk about this, or any piece of art or culture, and is not on my mind. xp to horseshoe
― Mordy, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:11 (twelve years ago) link
Sorry, I should point out that I haven't seen the show, I assume from slocki's post that the guy in the ep is actually her boyfriend and I probably shouldn't have used the term "casual sex" but I think there's a sense in which any sex you are having with someone who treats you poorly or disrespectfully is "casual"--they aren't valuing you and you aren't valuing yourself or insisting on anything better so how can that be beautiful or meaningful or intimate or whatever?
― how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:11 (twelve years ago) link
i think theres really common dynamic in your early/mid 20s where if you like someone more than they like you and you dont have the will or the sense of self or w/e to just stop wanting them or seeing them and so you just let yourself get treated worse than you should? and a lot of times you end up sleeping with this person that doesnt care about you or doesnt care enough like the sex in the pilot where their disinterest and your vulnerability make things really toxic
and like for straight guys i guess this dynamic rarely plays itself out during sex its more like the one girls clingy boyfriend instead but ive def been in situations and feel like its p common for that kind of emotional power inbalance to get ppl to have sex or types of sex they wouldnt choose for themselves in order to please. and i mean to hannahs credit shes asserts herself w/that guy even if she cant bring herself to stop wanting him
― Lamp, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:13 (twelve years ago) link
he isn't her boyfriend, at least teh way it's presented in that ep is that it's a bit of a friends with benefits sitch that she would like to turn into something more
― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:14 (twelve years ago) link
lamp pretty otm
― boy, was that Dan Fielding hungry for some cake! (forksclovetofu), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:18 (twelve years ago) link
to clarify for laurel, we see two 'relationships' in the pilot, lena dunham + asshole non-boyfriend who has rapey casual sex and brian williams daughter + michael cera committed boyfriend who is too nice and clingy and makes williams jr cringe so she wont have sex with him
― max, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:19 (twelve years ago) link
yeah that seems right; certainly a better frame for the scene than flanaganism
xxp about Lamp
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:19 (twelve years ago) link
also two other leads - virgin mamet character who identifies hard with satc, english cousin of mamet (i think?) who is pregnant and gives protagonist kinda shitty advice
― Mordy, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:20 (twelve years ago) link
and i mean continuing on i feel like in a lot of cultural products where the protagonist is neurotic or insecure or 'unattractive' its a male character who is suffering through this humiliation to get sex from a woman where sex is approval, closeness &c. and it was true and painfully but also funny to see a scene where a woman is using sex itself is the awkward and humiliating thing you need to do to get that approval, closeness. or not get it, which again feels p true to life.
― Lamp, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:24 (twelve years ago) link
yeah that's exactly the thing i appreciate about lena dunham's presence on the cultural scene, tbh. i feel like movie mythology about gender and desire is such that women (conventionally beautiful and graceful) are aloof objects for self-doubting men who pursue them for sex. women do get humiliated in those narratives but it's to different ends and a woman like dunham's character can't even exist in that world.
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:26 (twelve years ago) link
"lena", based on the pilot and the entire plot of tiny furniture, is a character who is done untoshe doesn't do much on her own and has figured out how to live in a space where things happen with minimal effort and without much aspiration(dunno if anyone noticed but when she takes the housekeeping money, she seems to pointedly NOT take her copy of her memoirs when she leaves)i don't get much of a sense that she has any clearly formed desires yet and that's intended i think as a commentary on the ennui and aimlessness of pampered early 20something millenialkinderso her lack of sophistication/enjoyment from sex seems at least partially connected with that motif though it's a pretty incendiary way to make that point thought maybe that IS the point? kinda?
― boy, was that Dan Fielding hungry for some cake! (forksclovetofu), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:27 (twelve years ago) link
i...don't know about that
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:28 (twelve years ago) link
I go to lunch and thread explodes. Laurel/Lamp otm x1000.
― wolf kabob (ENBB), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:34 (twelve years ago) link
i dont think not taking her memoirs means anything, its a printout
― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:44 (twelve years ago) link
its symbolism for the death of print media
― iatee, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:44 (twelve years ago) link
also she's the one who initiates the hangout with the dude, she's the one who tries to turn her internship into a real job, i think she has plenty of agency and aspiration
― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:45 (twelve years ago) link
also she actually wrote the memoir, regardless of whether she picks up the printout...
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:46 (twelve years ago) link
don't know if I hate america or girls more
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:47 (twelve years ago) link
also not sure the takeaway from the sex scene was that she needed to be more sophisticated.
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:47 (twelve years ago) link
show should have been called 'america' tbh
― 40oz of tears (Jordan), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:48 (twelve years ago) link
girls (w/ no names)
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:49 (twelve years ago) link
http://www.arismixtapes.com/catalog/images/WhiteAmericaOne.jpg
― Mordy, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:49 (twelve years ago) link
i dont think not taking her memoirs means anything, its a printout― A Little Princess btw (s1ocki)
― boy, was that Dan Fielding hungry for some cake! (forksclovetofu), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:50 (twelve years ago) link
how to make it in girls
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:50 (twelve years ago) link
i didn't mean lack of sophistication of sex; meant lack of sophistication / enjoyment of sexbad punctuation on my part
― boy, was that Dan Fielding hungry for some cake! (forksclovetofu), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:52 (twelve years ago) link
in the next episode an immigrant hotel maid steals the manuscript and becomes a best-selling author
― iatee, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:52 (twelve years ago) link
(spoilers)
― iatee, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:53 (twelve years ago) link
(jamaican accent)
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 20 April 2012 17:53 (twelve years ago) link
i know i often write chapters of pages for a project i don't really care about at all.
― horseshoe, Friday, 20 April 2012 17:54 (twelve years ago) link
^^ read that post in a jamaican accent
― flopson, Friday, 20 April 2012 18:04 (twelve years ago) link
i like this show a lot
Everything Lamp is saying seems right. I think?
― how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Friday, 20 April 2012 18:13 (twelve years ago) link
yep
― wolf kabob (ENBB), Friday, 20 April 2012 18:16 (twelve years ago) link
lol i actually read her leaving the manuscript there as a maybe unconscious "maybe someone will discover this and realize my genius!" moment.
― heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 20 April 2012 18:21 (twelve years ago) link
i know i often write chapters of pages for a project i don't really care about at all.― horseshoe, Friday, April 20
― boy, was that Dan Fielding hungry for some cake! (forksclovetofu), Friday, 20 April 2012 18:45 (twelve years ago) link
why would she take a particular printout of a computer file with her when someone else can throw it away later? do you people not use computers/
― raw feel vegan (silby), Friday, 20 April 2012 18:48 (twelve years ago) link
you guys just leave paper wherever you go huh
― boy, was that Dan Fielding hungry for some cake! (forksclovetofu), Friday, 20 April 2012 18:51 (twelve years ago) link
apparently this show is the new Lost
― da croupier, Friday, 20 April 2012 18:52 (twelve years ago) link