GIRLS talk (the Lena Dunham thread)

i think it's true that a lot of pressure is being placed on this show in part because a young woman created it. i mean, i am putting a lot of pressure on this show for that reason. but it's a little more complex than people hate this show because they hate women. i think part of the reason i was a little bummed there were no people of color in prominent roles is because i was so excited about and invested in the show.

xxp

but yes, also, s1ocki otm. the bruni response is frankly insane, for example.

haha bruni frankly

How To Make It In America is the EXACT SAME SHOW but with men and how nobody hated on that, etc.

well nobody hated on 'how to make it...' cuz nobody watched it, tbf

I h8d on it and also did not watch it

what was bruni's thing

part of the complexity at play is that it's a show about easy-to-hate women, written by/directed by/starring a woman
so you're supposed to hate the characters but they want you to like the show
except many people connect the characters to the creators which is a ley line she's seemingly intentionally left intact
so everybody gets to play hunt the wumpus on everyone involved's social media and promo press to get an AHA they ARE really just dumb bitches
which tbf is absolutely NOT the way any normal male-centric sitcom would work but they're absolutely intentionally playing to that dynamic
though i suppose if james franco started an HBO sitcom...

http://bruni.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/31/naked-in-new-york/

no such thing as a bit too feministy tbrr

wait no:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/opinion/sunday/bruni-the-bleaker-sex.html

I never saw How To Make It In America but didn't Kid Cudi star in that?

i watched this with my anarchist activist NYU assistant professor friend and her take was that all the characters were perfect dopplegangers for her undergrads (and i felt the same way, just about my fleet of interns) but that she didn't want to spend time with these people in real life and had no interest in spending leisure time with them either

yeah thats why I couldn't watch the sopranos

no such thing as a bit too feministy tbrr

― horseshoe, Friday, April 20, 2012 11:40 AM

for realllllll

i wouldnt want to spend time in real life with the characters on a lot of shows i enjoy, that argument is silly whether you're an assistant NYU professor or not

"if i could only hang out with littlefinger! :("

xps

sorry, that was totally and stupidly misworded; I just meant she sometimes oversimplifies or reduces things to "People hate this bcz WOMEN" which is often but certainly not always true.

slocks, you're missing the point; it's more like it you work in a hospital that it's coals to newcastle to watch, say, nurse jackie
it's not enlightening and it's exposure to a world you're exhausted with already

I get the comparisons to How To Make It In America (young, New York) but they're really not very alike.

Stevie I've read that a couple places and agree that it probably has something to do with it but don't think that's the sole or overriding reason it's gotten so much criticism. It's oversimplifying it.

ha x-posts

not all of us have a fleet of these lil stereotypes

I want to watch a show about asshole nyu profs

'profs'

slocks, you're missing the point; it's more like it you work in a hospital that it's coals to newcastle to watch, say, nurse jackie
it's not enlightening and it's exposure to a world you're exhausted with already

― boy, was that Dan Fielding hungry for some cake! (forksclovetofu), Friday, April 20, 2012 11:54 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

k fair enough, but as i'm not a nyu prof, and few ppl are, it's like...

I don't have to watch the show... I lived it

loooooooool

the nieghborhood has changed so much

also ppl love watching shows about what they do, it gives the something to pedantically complain abt and feel superior to

slocki, normal people don't "review" shows, they decide whether or not it's worth their time based on their interests and lifstyle. you're allowed to crack jokes about getting enough of this shit at work.

thats why i wish more shows were abt posting on msg boards, playing elf warrior 6

good drama or comedy can overcome familiarity - the most popular sitcoms revolve around 'shit lots of people experience' taken to an absurd extreme

If you don't find Girls (thru one episode, of course) to be funny or well-written as melodrama, it's just going to be like hanging out with a bunch of people you dislike.

what sitcoms do anarchists like anyway

'alf'

How I Met Your Mother, Louie IME (ie mine)

a lot of ppl also perversely like watching/commenting on things they dislike or that irk them, like, A LOT so that's a p good premise for a tv show tbh

from everything i've seen lena seems unsure herself to what extent the sexual relationships her character engages in are degrading/problematic (in one interview she says something like that she thinks the character will snap with anger at the way she is abused by the end of the season), sex-positive (she says that the character is completely choosing what is happening, there is no coercion, 'i did enjoy it!' etc), or something in between (and in that Bruni piece she notes that tension in the way the second sex scene was shot and Apatow says, 'you look like you're being murdered'). there's nothing wrong with that tension, and afaik it's the most interesting thing about the show, but also it seems like ppl feel ambiguous about that being at the center of discussion re the show?

obv it's a little unfair to try to break all this stuff down after one episode - and a pilot no less - it does seem a little early to really start putting pressure on that dynamic, but it also seems like the text of the show and i kinda wish ppl would discuss it more but maybe it's too personal a thing to talk about? (in particular, i wish everyone who has said that they relate the most to those scenes would discuss that more and explain exactly how, etc, but maybe that's asking too much)

sorry if this is one note of me - lol - but it's kinda the only part of the show i found interesting

it's funny to watch people go "i can't believe we're talking this much about this after only one episode!" and then keep posting about it. it's ok, guys, people talk about pilots, it's allowed.

although obviously there are some things (especially character development for the supporting cast) that it's not fair to critique the show on this early, etc.

personally i feel like sex-positive v. degrading is a naive and inadequate frame for talking about young women's sexual experiences.

i got that from your previous posts, but i didn't get what the better frame for discussing it is

slocki, normal people don't "review" shows, they decide whether or not it's worth their time based on their interests and lifstyle. you're allowed to crack jokes about getting enough of this shit at work.

― da croupier, Friday, April 20, 2012 12:00 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's true tho that ppl actually DO like watching shows about themselves

you know there's a difference between a prof and an undergrad, right

personally i feel like sex-positive v. degrading is a naive and inadequate frame for talking about young women's sexual experiences.

― horseshoe, Friday, April 20, 2012 12:14 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it def bothers me how any sexual experience that isnt like 100%-upbeat and happy and perfect is framed as being such a dark thing

also feel like dunham has been pretty clear on this point? that she's had loving sexual experiences and anxiety-producing ones and that even the anxiety-producing ones she entered into by choice. i don't know that i'm seeing the ambiguity. unless you mean bell's point, that given the long tradition of how women's bodies are represented and sometimes punished onscreen, Girls runs the risk of participating in that tradition even if dunham's intentions are otherwise.

you know there's a difference between a prof and an undergrad, right

― da croupier, Friday, April 20, 2012 12:16 PM (5 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i actually forget the difference, something about where they stand in the room?

lena says in the salon interview that i quoted above that she thinks men will come away from that scene asking themselves if they've been rapey in the past. that's not a not-100%-upbeat and happy and perfect sexual experience, or just an anxiety-producing one.

like, a guy threatening implicitly that he might not use a condom during sex, or initiating anal sex without asking for permission first -- these are rapey things! you can't just handwave it away as less than perfect sex. that's crazy!

and to lena's credit, she obv realizes that and intends that reaction. i don't understand ppl on this thread though trying to downplay it