the USA, Israel, and national interest

In any case, I don't think there's much hope for Israel becoming more open and tolerant and leftist right now. It's going the opposite way.

LOL at education making people more receptive to civil unions and gay marriage.

I believe this is true. I had homophobic friends in my right-wing Yeshiva high school who went to college and, when I talked to them this year, were voting against Prop 8.

to be fair, ethan, mordy did explain: if everyone's fed/educated/productive/whatever, then social liberalism will follow because, hey, look out how well we're all doing. the actual mechanics of that seem a little mysterious, tho. and yeah, if social programs come saddled w/heavy-handed proselytizing, then a liberal social agenda will be pretty severely hamstringed

god i am slow today xposts

Oh, maybe not. Well, no I don't think poor people are indoctrinated. I think that when you're poor, you're more likely to feel xenophobic, protectionist, and not have the educational opportunities you need to understand people who aren't like you.

― Mordy, Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:34 PM (34 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

poor people like pat robertson, sarah palin, james dobson, sam brownback, etc etc etc

Yeah, I think that proves my point, not undermines it.

Oh, you mean "poor people, for instance pat robertson," not "poor people enjoy pat robertson"?

if more people ate pat robertson, we'd have less poor hungry people.

I believe this is true. I had homophobic friends in my right-wing Yeshiva high school who went to college and, when I talked to them this year, were voting against Prop 8.

Well, bully for them, but, in my experience, education don't mean jack shit; neither does prolonged exposure to "regular" homosexual folks. Besides, homophobia isn't a left or right-wing issue.

Actually, I think there are studies that show that prolonged exposure to higher education leads to more leftwing positions. I'll try to dig some up?

I know plenty of college-educated Republicans, thanks.

On with the thread.

It could also undermine capitalism!

DAMN THIS DIVERSITY

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, January 13, 2009 11:34 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

don't be a dick, dude. no one is saying diversity is damnable and boy if only we could get rid of it or segregate into ethnically homogenous societies THEN we'd finally get that healthcare we've been dreaming about. i just pointed out that it's been *easier* for homogenous countries to adopt liberal social programs because there wasn't some conspicuous cultural rift. endemic racism undercuts the success of social welfare programs, not diversity.

don't be a dick, dude.

easier said than done!

i know you weren't saying that gbx, but it has been suggested many times in the past.

anyway i don't know about "endemic" racism but i can definitely point to specifically whipped-up racism in order to defeat social welfare programs.

Uh, they do. Arab citizens have the exact same rights as Jews.

― Mordy, Tuesday, January 13, 2009 4:28 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

There are even Arab representatives in the knesset.

― Mordy, Tuesday, January 13, 2009 4:28 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

Knesset committee bans Arab parties from elections

That's pretty fucked up, and I'm particularly upset that Labor voted with the CEC. And I don't think it's okay even though it seems a number of the voters were voting symbolically (ie: With the intention that the Supreme Court would overturn it). I really don't know why that would happen - I guess I blame the current Gaza situation. People are probably scrambling. It's totally fucked.

(It does seem like the rest of labor is pissed - but I don't know how much Cabel was voting in labor interests and how much he was voting on his own.)

The ban will be overturned by the Supreme Court for sure. Still fucked up tho

Also, OTOH, it's pretty amazing that Israel has legitimate political parties that call publicly for its destruction.

When did they do that?

All three motions claimed that Balad must be disqualified on grounds that it does not recognize Israel as the Jewish homeland, and that it advocates an armed conflict against it. Israel's High Court of Justice, in the past, has overturned votes to disqualify Balad from national elections that were based on similar grounds.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3654866,00.html

Do you have an actual source instead of a paraphrase of second-hand information from Israeli rightwingers?

You mean ידיעות אחרונות?

I'll look for somewhere else. Sure.

Genuine question for Mordy: is the dividing line between what you find to be logical/rational/acceptable criticism of Israel's actions and irrational prejudice against Israel based on a) the content of what's being said - "this attack is a strategic error" vs, for argument's sake, "the IDF should disband"; b) the distance removed from the situation and the resulting assumed lack of knowledge/empathy - Ha'aretz vs. random London twentysomethings; or c) any association with groups or individuals that hold the positions you find objectionable?

Well, Yediot is bad enough, but the source of the information is the motions themselves which were filed by nutso right wing parties.

For what it's worth tho, Yediot isn't "second-hand rightwinger information"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yediot_Ahronot

Xpost to Flyboy, mostly A.

Also, the reflexive "at least Israel has a free press" thing is a bit tired, imho. Do you respond to every criticism of the Iraq war with "But it's amazing that the United States tolerates protest of that war!"

Yediot is a piece of shit rag. But my point is that those claims come from a motion to disqualify the parties.

Who said at least Israel has a free press?

I know plenty of college-educated Republicans, thanks.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn

"Who's more educated?" comes up a lot in these discussions. It's a liberal truism that libs are more educated, but I don't know that this is true. Anybody got any good studies? I ran a few cursory comparison tables off the UC Berkley SDA tool, using the "GSS 1972-2006 Cumulative Datafile", but don't know enough about the data to think my results necessarily mean anything. What I noticed was that "Democrats" (as a self-defined group) seem to draw much more heavily than "Republicans" from those with no college education. But conversely, "Liberals" are slightly more likely than "Conservatives" to attain advanced degrees. Make of that what you will.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/925764.html

Balad to hold vote on whether to accept Israel as a Jewish state
By Haaretz Service

The Israeli-Arab Balad party will hold an assembly this Saturday in Shfaram to vote on whether to accept Israel as a Jewish state. Separately, members will vote on whether to oppose the upcoming Middle East Peace Summit in Annapolis.

According to a statement released by Balad on Monday, the party's objections to the summit are based on its failure to focus on the "right of return" for Palestinian refugees, the evacuation of settlements in the West Bank and the founding of a sovereign Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital.

The statement also said that the demand on the part of Israel for recognition as a Jewish state is meant to push the issue of Palestinian refugees aside and to give legitimacy to the "second-class standing" of Israeli-Arabs.

The party maintains that the Annapolis summit will be used by the U.S., Israel and the Palestinian Authority to push aside legitimate Palestinian concerns in favor of superficial gestures.

The statement closed with a call to the Palestinian Authority to resist U.S. and Israeli pressure to abandon fundamental Palestinian demands.

How does not accepting Israel as a Jewish state = calling for the destruction of Israel?

I'll keep looking for an explicit call for destruction (which I've for sure seen) but I'd like to mention that:

a) Left winger blogs get posted here all the time. But Y.A. is suddenly not an okay source for a news article.
b) These were crazy right-wingers who filed this, unless you believe Kadima are fanatical right-wingers??

These were not*

Honestly the political representation of Arabs in Israel is no amazing credit to Israel. They are nowhere near proportionally represented.

The requests to ban the Arab parties were filed by two ultra right parties Yisrael Beiteinu and National Union-National Religious Party.

"Who's more educated?" comes up a lot in these discussions. It's a liberal truism that libs are more educated, but I don't know that this is true. Anybody got any good studies?

Liberals in the 20th century believed that education was the panacea: if only people were better educated, they'd abandon their prejudices. This is nonsense, as anyone who lives in Miami and Orange County will tell you.

I mean Iran has a Jewish parliament member too, iirc.

That link makes it pretty clear that Balad were not "calling for the destruction" of Israel, unless you consider granting right of return, dismantling settlements and allowing a Palestinian state to be tantamount to destruction - which I'm aware is a position held on the right, but even so, it's disingenuous to imply that this is the same thing, as, say, Ahmadinejad's rhetoric.

According to a statement released by Balad on Monday, the party's objections to the summit are based on its failure to focus on the "right of return" for Palestinian refugees, the evacuation of settlements in the West Bank and the founding of a sovereign Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital.

The statement also said that the demand on the part of Israel for recognition as a Jewish state is meant to push the issue of Palestinian refugees aside and to give legitimacy to the "second-class standing" of Israeli-Arabs.

Many xposts.

Right, they filed it. But Kadima signed on. That's how it passed.

Well fuck them in the face for doing so. What's your point?

That it wasn't crazy right-wing fanatics who signed onto this bill? Like you said earlier?

No, I said very specifically that the source of the claim that the parties "called for the destruction of Israel" was a motion that was filed by religious Jewish right wing parties.

Ok, I'm just saying that Kadima signed onto that motion. :/

Which sucks. But your point is good for Israel for allowing those parties in the first place?

So clearly it isn't just the looney toons that believe it. But anyway, I'm dropping this issue until I find a source for Balad. I stand by my initial reaction that it's fucked up. But it's also pretty crazy that Balad exists in the first place.

yes it is pretty crazy that a party like this would exist:

Balad is an Arab nationalist political party,[3][4] whose stated purpose is the 'struggle to transform the state of Israel into a democracy for all its citizens, irrespective of national or ethnic identity.'[5] Balad also demands that the state of Israel recognize Palestinian Arabs as a national minority, entitled to all rights that come with that status including autonomy in education, culture and media.[5]

Uhhhhhh, yes, allowing nationalist parties representation in parliament is hardly unusual