the USA, Israel, and national interest

mitya, why not?

I know in American Socialist history, a lot of times religion + Socialism have gone hand in hand

And in the UK, esp. Methodism

That's not what Gay Unions means, Mordy.

Sorry, joek.

Question is not whether socialism and religion can coexist, but whether you can have an ethno-religious nationalist state that is genuinely socialist.

Uh, Unions. Like... economic unions.

It's one of the reasons, actually, I'm hoping Huckabee Republicans win over the party. I think Socialist Religion is ultimately better than Free Market Secularism.

cuz off the top of my head, it seems like some of the most successful socialist societies (e.g. Scandinavia) have flourished *because of* their ethnic homogeneity, not in spite of it. canada is a notable exception, i guess, but as a nation of immigrants w/a short history, most canadians i've met seem pretty content to be canadian first and $ETHNIC second. except, like, quebecers, but that is a different can of worms for a different thread of hotheaded generalizations

xposts

It's one of the reasons, actually, I'm hoping Huckabee Republicans win over the party. I think Socialist Religion is ultimately better than Free Market Secularism.

― Mordy, Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:24 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

you might regret this dogg

It's possible. It just seems to me that handling our poor + impoverished will lead to left-wing culturalism. This is sorta Thomas Frank's thesis, tho, no?

xpost

I don't even know how to answer that. The logic that a strong labor movement will eventually lead to social acceptance of gay marriage just seems like nonsense. Not to mention the fact that we've had stronger unions in the past and I've never heard anyone argue that it's led to inroads for homosexuals. Sorry if I'm behind on the literature or something.

mitya, the idea is that strong labor leads to higher national education and higher education leads to more socially liberal causes - like gay marriage.

i guess i don't understand why it was to be one or the other, mordy

arent most christian fundie huckabee supporters middle class college grads? how will explicitly christian programs to feed poor kids help gay dudes?? wtf are you talking about

cuz off the top of my head, it seems like some of the most successful socialist societies(e.g. Scandinavia) have flourished *because of* their ethnic homogeneity, not in spite of it.

― gbx

This makes good sense to me. Distrust and rivalry in culturally heterogeneous societies could undermine socialism. Also, I'm surprised at the reluctance to link socialism to religion. Religious communalism often comes very close to socialism.

I could be wrong, but AFAIK, Huckabee rhetoric (at least that I've heard) is all Social programs and anti-laissez-faire

like, huckabee's fairly-moderate idea of social service includes indoctrinating the recipients into christian fundamentalism and that erases any of the benefits you might get imo.... you seem to think poor people are naturally bigoted instead of being taught by - SPOILER ALERT - people like mike huckabee!!

and what, I think you're thinking of Ron Paul?

Distrust and rivalry in culturally heterogeneous societies could undermine socialism.

It could also undermine capitalism!

DAMN THIS DIVERSITY

LOL at education making people more receptive to civil unions and gay marriage.

Oh, maybe not. Well, no I don't think poor people are indoctrinated. I think that when you're poor, you're more likely to feel xenophobic, protectionist, and not have the educational opportunities you need to understand people who aren't like you.

LOL at education making people more receptive to civil unions and gay marriage.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:34 PM (41 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

fronting

In any case, I don't think there's much hope for Israel becoming more open and tolerant and leftist right now. It's going the opposite way.

LOL at education making people more receptive to civil unions and gay marriage.

I believe this is true. I had homophobic friends in my right-wing Yeshiva high school who went to college and, when I talked to them this year, were voting against Prop 8.

to be fair, ethan, mordy did explain: if everyone's fed/educated/productive/whatever, then social liberalism will follow because, hey, look out how well we're all doing. the actual mechanics of that seem a little mysterious, tho. and yeah, if social programs come saddled w/heavy-handed proselytizing, then a liberal social agenda will be pretty severely hamstringed

god i am slow today xposts

Oh, maybe not. Well, no I don't think poor people are indoctrinated. I think that when you're poor, you're more likely to feel xenophobic, protectionist, and not have the educational opportunities you need to understand people who aren't like you.

― Mordy, Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:34 PM (34 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

poor people like pat robertson, sarah palin, james dobson, sam brownback, etc etc etc

Yeah, I think that proves my point, not undermines it.

Oh, you mean "poor people, for instance pat robertson," not "poor people enjoy pat robertson"?

if more people ate pat robertson, we'd have less poor hungry people.

I believe this is true. I had homophobic friends in my right-wing Yeshiva high school who went to college and, when I talked to them this year, were voting against Prop 8.

Well, bully for them, but, in my experience, education don't mean jack shit; neither does prolonged exposure to "regular" homosexual folks. Besides, homophobia isn't a left or right-wing issue.

Actually, I think there are studies that show that prolonged exposure to higher education leads to more leftwing positions. I'll try to dig some up?

I know plenty of college-educated Republicans, thanks.

On with the thread.

It could also undermine capitalism!

DAMN THIS DIVERSITY

― Tracer Hand, Tuesday, January 13, 2009 11:34 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

don't be a dick, dude. no one is saying diversity is damnable and boy if only we could get rid of it or segregate into ethnically homogenous societies THEN we'd finally get that healthcare we've been dreaming about. i just pointed out that it's been *easier* for homogenous countries to adopt liberal social programs because there wasn't some conspicuous cultural rift. endemic racism undercuts the success of social welfare programs, not diversity.

don't be a dick, dude.

easier said than done!

i know you weren't saying that gbx, but it has been suggested many times in the past.

anyway i don't know about "endemic" racism but i can definitely point to specifically whipped-up racism in order to defeat social welfare programs.

Uh, they do. Arab citizens have the exact same rights as Jews.

― Mordy, Tuesday, January 13, 2009 4:28 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

There are even Arab representatives in the knesset.

― Mordy, Tuesday, January 13, 2009 4:28 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

Knesset committee bans Arab parties from elections

That's pretty fucked up, and I'm particularly upset that Labor voted with the CEC. And I don't think it's okay even though it seems a number of the voters were voting symbolically (ie: With the intention that the Supreme Court would overturn it). I really don't know why that would happen - I guess I blame the current Gaza situation. People are probably scrambling. It's totally fucked.

(It does seem like the rest of labor is pissed - but I don't know how much Cabel was voting in labor interests and how much he was voting on his own.)

The ban will be overturned by the Supreme Court for sure. Still fucked up tho

Also, OTOH, it's pretty amazing that Israel has legitimate political parties that call publicly for its destruction.

When did they do that?

All three motions claimed that Balad must be disqualified on grounds that it does not recognize Israel as the Jewish homeland, and that it advocates an armed conflict against it. Israel's High Court of Justice, in the past, has overturned votes to disqualify Balad from national elections that were based on similar grounds.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3654866,00.html

Do you have an actual source instead of a paraphrase of second-hand information from Israeli rightwingers?

You mean ידיעות אחרונות?

I'll look for somewhere else. Sure.

Genuine question for Mordy: is the dividing line between what you find to be logical/rational/acceptable criticism of Israel's actions and irrational prejudice against Israel based on a) the content of what's being said - "this attack is a strategic error" vs, for argument's sake, "the IDF should disband"; b) the distance removed from the situation and the resulting assumed lack of knowledge/empathy - Ha'aretz vs. random London twentysomethings; or c) any association with groups or individuals that hold the positions you find objectionable?

Well, Yediot is bad enough, but the source of the information is the motions themselves which were filed by nutso right wing parties.

For what it's worth tho, Yediot isn't "second-hand rightwinger information"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yediot_Ahronot

Xpost to Flyboy, mostly A.

Also, the reflexive "at least Israel has a free press" thing is a bit tired, imho. Do you respond to every criticism of the Iraq war with "But it's amazing that the United States tolerates protest of that war!"

Yediot is a piece of shit rag. But my point is that those claims come from a motion to disqualify the parties.

Who said at least Israel has a free press?