the USA, Israel, and national interest

horseshoe, it's cool, i got you

http://rosenblumtv.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/switchboard.jpg

since I'm more familiar with them than right-wing religious Palestinians.

okay, i sort of suspected this. the shots you were taking at Palestinian culture made it sound like you weren't super-familiar with it, which made your rhetoric that much harder to take

I'd like to see a secular Socialist government take hold in Israel and in Palestine.

this is nice, but you might as well wish for a pony while you're at it.

I don't think it's a fairy tale. Israel potentially could go back to labor. At the moment, it seems unlikely, but that's mostly due to the Gaza situation and US involvement. If Israel more closely aligned with Europe (which I could see happening, especially if the dollar continues to weaken and US support lessons), then they'll go labor again.

i think yall are forgetting jews did 9/11
http://www.trueorthodox.com/pictures/implode1.jpg

Chances of a Socialist government anywhere pretty remote

I'd like to see a secular Socialist government take hold in Israel and in Palestine.

But not a one-state solution?

At the moment it seems more likely to me to have a two-state Socialist solution than a one-state solution. I think the economics need to be worked out and then we can make progress on the hatred Arabs + Jews have for each other.

© Real Jew News

Isn't it kind of antithetical to socialism to have a nation predicated on an ethnicity/cultural-religious background?

I feel this way in America too, btw. I think economic leftism is much more important than social liberalism. I think once people are fed and educated, they'll naturally come around on the social stuff. That's why I think promoting Unions, for instance, is much more important than fighting for gay marriage. (Of course, I'm not gay myself, and I can totally understand the urgency behind it for those who are...) I think the latter will come naturally with the former.

(that was a lol from that pic, not a thread commentary, btw, in case i am misunderstood)

Max, when you are the target of anti-sentiment, it is not very easy to distinguish between rational and irrational reasons for it.

― ^likes black girls (HI DERE), Tuesday, 13 January 2009 16:11 (40 minutes ago) Permalink

much OTM

Isn't it kind of antithetical to socialism to have a nation predicated on an ethnicity/cultural-religious background?

Yes and no. Socialism isn't incompatible with religion/ethnicity. Tho it's rare.

xxxp: I kind of agree w/ that, Mordy, and I'm pretty sure you're not a race-exterminator type.

I also think that a two-state solution is more realistic than a one-state solution. But in the long run the idea of frantically working to preserve an ethnic-religious majority in a state seems to work counter to the idea of peaceful socialism. Right wing hawkism prevails in Israel precisely because the "threat" to such a state is always imminent.

Right, I agree with that. I think it's circular. I think the hawkism perpetuates the status quo, and the status quo is good for the hawks. And I think the possibility that Israel overextends themselves and the people become disillusioned enough to abandon Kadima, arguably what happened in the last US election, is not something I want to wish for.

Socialism isn't incompatible with religion/ethnicity. Tho it's rare.

― Mordy, Tuesday, January 13, 2009 11:11 AM (0 seconds ago) Bookmark

i am in no way a marxist scholar, so someone fill me in: has the success of socialism traditionally been predicated on the wholesale paving-over of ethnic/religious identities? or just the parts that may prove subversive?

(serious question, if phrased a little challopy)

That's why I think promoting Unions, for instance, is much more important than fighting for gay marriage... I think the latter will come naturally with the former.

!?! Methinks you weren't thinking when you wrote this.

I know in American Socialist history, a lot of times religion + Socialism have gone hand in hand (I'm thinking here mostly of the Caro LBJ books). XP

mitya, why not?

I know in American Socialist history, a lot of times religion + Socialism have gone hand in hand

And in the UK, esp. Methodism

That's not what Gay Unions means, Mordy.

Sorry, joek.

Question is not whether socialism and religion can coexist, but whether you can have an ethno-religious nationalist state that is genuinely socialist.

Uh, Unions. Like... economic unions.

It's one of the reasons, actually, I'm hoping Huckabee Republicans win over the party. I think Socialist Religion is ultimately better than Free Market Secularism.

cuz off the top of my head, it seems like some of the most successful socialist societies (e.g. Scandinavia) have flourished *because of* their ethnic homogeneity, not in spite of it. canada is a notable exception, i guess, but as a nation of immigrants w/a short history, most canadians i've met seem pretty content to be canadian first and $ETHNIC second. except, like, quebecers, but that is a different can of worms for a different thread of hotheaded generalizations

xposts

It's one of the reasons, actually, I'm hoping Huckabee Republicans win over the party. I think Socialist Religion is ultimately better than Free Market Secularism.

― Mordy, Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:24 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

you might regret this dogg

It's possible. It just seems to me that handling our poor + impoverished will lead to left-wing culturalism. This is sorta Thomas Frank's thesis, tho, no?

xpost

I don't even know how to answer that. The logic that a strong labor movement will eventually lead to social acceptance of gay marriage just seems like nonsense. Not to mention the fact that we've had stronger unions in the past and I've never heard anyone argue that it's led to inroads for homosexuals. Sorry if I'm behind on the literature or something.

mitya, the idea is that strong labor leads to higher national education and higher education leads to more socially liberal causes - like gay marriage.

i guess i don't understand why it was to be one or the other, mordy

arent most christian fundie huckabee supporters middle class college grads? how will explicitly christian programs to feed poor kids help gay dudes?? wtf are you talking about

cuz off the top of my head, it seems like some of the most successful socialist societies(e.g. Scandinavia) have flourished *because of* their ethnic homogeneity, not in spite of it.

― gbx

This makes good sense to me. Distrust and rivalry in culturally heterogeneous societies could undermine socialism. Also, I'm surprised at the reluctance to link socialism to religion. Religious communalism often comes very close to socialism.

I could be wrong, but AFAIK, Huckabee rhetoric (at least that I've heard) is all Social programs and anti-laissez-faire

like, huckabee's fairly-moderate idea of social service includes indoctrinating the recipients into christian fundamentalism and that erases any of the benefits you might get imo.... you seem to think poor people are naturally bigoted instead of being taught by - SPOILER ALERT - people like mike huckabee!!

and what, I think you're thinking of Ron Paul?

Distrust and rivalry in culturally heterogeneous societies could undermine socialism.

It could also undermine capitalism!

DAMN THIS DIVERSITY

LOL at education making people more receptive to civil unions and gay marriage.

Oh, maybe not. Well, no I don't think poor people are indoctrinated. I think that when you're poor, you're more likely to feel xenophobic, protectionist, and not have the educational opportunities you need to understand people who aren't like you.

LOL at education making people more receptive to civil unions and gay marriage.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, January 13, 2009 6:34 PM (41 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

fronting

In any case, I don't think there's much hope for Israel becoming more open and tolerant and leftist right now. It's going the opposite way.

LOL at education making people more receptive to civil unions and gay marriage.

I believe this is true. I had homophobic friends in my right-wing Yeshiva high school who went to college and, when I talked to them this year, were voting against Prop 8.

to be fair, ethan, mordy did explain: if everyone's fed/educated/productive/whatever, then social liberalism will follow because, hey, look out how well we're all doing. the actual mechanics of that seem a little mysterious, tho. and yeah, if social programs come saddled w/heavy-handed proselytizing, then a liberal social agenda will be pretty severely hamstringed

god i am slow today xposts

Oh, maybe not. Well, no I don't think poor people are indoctrinated. I think that when you're poor, you're more likely to feel xenophobic, protectionist, and not have the educational opportunities you need to understand people who aren't like you.

― Mordy, Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:34 PM (34 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

poor people like pat robertson, sarah palin, james dobson, sam brownback, etc etc etc

Yeah, I think that proves my point, not undermines it.

Oh, you mean "poor people, for instance pat robertson," not "poor people enjoy pat robertson"?

if more people ate pat robertson, we'd have less poor hungry people.

I believe this is true. I had homophobic friends in my right-wing Yeshiva high school who went to college and, when I talked to them this year, were voting against Prop 8.

Well, bully for them, but, in my experience, education don't mean jack shit; neither does prolonged exposure to "regular" homosexual folks. Besides, homophobia isn't a left or right-wing issue.

Actually, I think there are studies that show that prolonged exposure to higher education leads to more leftwing positions. I'll try to dig some up?

I know plenty of college-educated Republicans, thanks.

On with the thread.