2008 Primaries Thread 2: THE QUICKENING

I didn't mean to say otherwise, Alfred. And you can look at that in reverse: The dastardly things McCain's done as a Senator don't mitigate his military service.

I'm sorry. Guess I reflexively gag when a hack extols someone as an "American hero."

Did you see the Wiki picture of him, being fished out of the water in Vietnam, about to be taken as a POW? I don't like McCain, but he deserves tremendous respect for what he went through.

Guess I reflexively gag when a hack extols someone as an "American hero."

Haha. It just dawned on me that I'm the hack. True enough, I guess.

to actually serve in vietnam, become a POW, refuse to denounce any part of it, and then blame anti-war protesters for "sabotaging" the effort - i dont respect that

I could understand it though

I'm a hack too. I respect what he did in Nam. He could have gone home, but instead chose to stay in a box for 5.5 years. Folks around here don't do anything more heroic than refresh their browsers every half hour.

Is your finger getting numb on that mouse, Bill?

Haha. It just dawned on me that I'm the hack. True enough, I guess.

I don't think you've used "American heor" in the Hannity sense of the words, Daniel, so you're in the clear.

American HORE

instead chose to stay in a box for 5.5 years.

lolz.

"Is your finger getting numb on that mouse, Bill?"

I am definitely in that category, yes. I'm about as heroic as a ham sandwich. BTW, I'm not into the hannity shit either, in fact, I hate that fucking guy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3d/Vietcapturejm01.jpg

Am I living in a box?
Am I living in a cardboard box?

i have to admit id never seen this before & its pretty bad ass:

McCain faced two experienced state legislators in the Republican nomination process, and as a newcomer to the state was hit with repeated charges of being a carpetbagger. Finally at a candidates forum he gave a famous refutation to a voter making the charge:

"Listen, pal. I spent 22 years in the Navy. My father was in the Navy. My grandfather was in the Navy. We in the military service tend to move a lot. We have to live in all parts of the country, all parts of the world. I wish I could have had the luxury, like you, of growing up and living and spending my entire life in a nice place like the First District of Arizona, but I was doing other things. As a matter of fact, when I think about it now, the place I lived longest in my life was Hanoi."

pwn3d

ohsnap.gif!

Oh now that is nicely played.

Suzy's mom to endorse Obama instead of "old, angry fucker." Film at 11.

Suzy's mom was calling McCain the old, angry fucker for once.

no one says listen pal anymore

...actually they do too, IN SCOTLAND.

I'm a hack too. I respect what he did in Nam. He could have gone home, but instead chose to stay in a box for 5.5 years. Folks around here don't do anything more heroic than refresh their browsers every half hour.

-- Bill Magill, Wednesday, 27 February 2008 21:06 (31 minutes ago) Link

But why do you respect him for that? Why is this particularly heroic? If he indeed could have gone home, then isn't it just plain stupid to stay there?

I just don't get the heroism-card that's being played out. A card from a terrible, useless war. I mean, I get it, but I don't get it...

*sigh*

i think some people might call it heroic because the act showed solidarity with the other prisoners who were still there?

(i could be wrong -- isn't that what happened though?)

Basically, that type of decision is difficult to comprehend by today's standards where the number one virtue preached by our society is "get yours".

Who cares is he's a "hero" or not? I just said that he deserves tremendous respect for what he went through during his military service. I can't see how that's a controversial point. (n.1)

___________________________
(n.1) And I'm not talking about what Bill mentioned (the 5.5 years). My comment is based on his fighting in a war and being a POW.

@Mark, put that way, I can understand it, sure, on the point of solidarity.
I think pacifism blocked my view on this one.

"(i could be wrong -- isn't that what happened though?)"

Yes.

"If he indeed could have gone home, then isn't it just plain stupid to stay there?"

I'd like to think I would have made the same decision he did.

I'm REALLY not gonna say it's somewhat comparable to the subjective heroism of the 9/11 hijackers.

I'm really not.

military rules stipulate that the first captured is the first get out, according to the laws (or maybe just traditions) of war captors don't get to decide which prisoners go free in an exchange, just how many. the NVA knew who McCain was (son of an admiral) and wanted to let him go as a goodwill gesture, or maybe cos they thought he'd be more valuable (i forget this point), but he refused, cos according to the rules every other prisoner was ahead of him in line.

Correct, first in, first out.

fuck you guys hes a hero

no ones asking him to be YOUR hero but we're talking about a specific context i dont think you have much of an argument

haha Morbz, never change.

its really ok to admit that someone who would be terrible for the country as president may have in fact done some good things

i know a lot of folks really like obama cuz he's seen as a liberal trojan horse, sneaking lefty politics under the guise of centrist speech making, and i've used this as a defense of him, but i really do respect that notion that we can raise the level of discourse beyond petty and misleading partisanship.

okay not to be dumb, but what exactly are mccains foreign policy qualifications besides being a POW? Thats all anyone ever mentions...

he FOUGHT in a WAR what more do you want

he's old!

In January 1993 McCain was named chairman of the board of directors of the International Republican Institute,[118] a non-profit democracy promotion organization with informal ties to the Republican party. The position would allow McCain to bolster his foreign policy expertise and credentials.

5 minutes on Wikipedia led me to this.

you're an american hero

failing to learn lesson about pointless wars after fighting in pointless war = "foreign policy experience"

20 years and ranking member status on Senate Armed Services Committee isn't too shabby. There are people who have more foreign policy experience than he does, but he's got far more than Clinton or Obama.

The central point of the McCain POW story isn't that he offered some heroic service to his country -- it's that he was willing to stay in a torturous situation based on abstract principles and codes that it would have been incredibly easy to rationalize his way out of holding to, something his supporters will tell you displays a very high level of integrity and dedication to ideals. Which is completely true, and nobody who hasn't stood around in a cage of mangled legs is going to have much rhetorical success trying to argue otherwise. A more important question, in terms of attacking the guy, is whether that same level of dedication to principle has been kept up throughout his time in government, especially in instances where the principle itself has been easier to fudge: pulling it off once does not mean pulling it off always.

Hahaha pardon me that's "stood around in a cage ON mangled legs"

I have no evidence that the North Vietnamese ever constructed cages out of human body parts, and suspect that they would not have done so due to the high possibility of escape

US magazine brings out the cuteness guns

http://www.usmagazine.com/Barack_Obama_hes_just_like_us_022708

is that a muslim tricycle

nice mini-turban

red white and blue handlebar streamers = proof of patriotism from a young age

was that taken before or after he decided to become president

Would losing the popular vote in Texas and Ohio but getting a delegate lead in Texas be the worst outcome for Obama next Tuesday? It would allow Clinton a big storyline in terms of the delegate counts not reflecting the will of the people and might generate some actual sympathy from dems still wincing over the 2000 national election.

I think that's a stretch, but hey, I'm sure they'll try to spin it that way