South Park: Classic or Dud?

DWH I wasn't saying the shows were similar except that they both get carried away with bits in dorky ways, basically.

Animation is allowed to improve after so much time yes, if that's what you mean. But they didn't do anything to preserve the personality that came naturally out of the crudeness. The silliness and abrupt, quick pacing of the homemade animation and sound effects was a great counterpoint to the over the top ridiculous scenes that took place, and was certainly intentional even if it started as necessity.

I still watch it, it still makes me laugh, the show has changed but it still has pretty much the same spirit it always had. Which is: make fun of all things, all the time, make fun of all the people.

This week's episode was A+.

I certainly agree with that, but I was talking about the execution.

If you wanted the kids to grow up then you should have let them. Might as well have them all in college if you want people to believe they'd have all these developed critiques on society.

this is really the worst thing an animated show can do, which is why none of them do it. live action shows where the characters aging is a real thing (i.e. any show with kids on it) tends to have a totally different dynamic than an animated show. some of the Simpsons episodes where they go into the future are nice, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to watch a version of the show where all the characters were 15 years older. I think in South Park it's kind of a given that the kids aren't really kids anymore, which yes is a little bothersome, but still part of the show's overall dynamic.

the show's main thesis has always been "the kids are sane and the adults are crazy, except for when the kids are crazy"

Yeah, but the kids were originally sane via their fresh young world view without preconceived notions. Now they're just megaphones for stuff Matt and Trey are annoyed by in current events.

And you're right, the show wouldn't have worked with them literally grown up, but that was my point in a way. Plenty of shows develop progressively in all sorts of subtle directions, and at a certain point the writers and viewers have been steadily lead into the new world that's been created that they don't notice the purity of the original concept is corrupted and forgotten, leaving a portion of fans disinterested and saying the show sucks now but they're not sure why.

I don't think South Park sucks that bad now but I consider the first 3 1/2 seasons at least to be a much, much different and better program altogether.

Yeah, but the kids were originally sane via their fresh young world view without preconceived notions.

we only thought this because Matt and Trey hadn't done five bazillion interviews about their views and how they influence the show yet

No I mean how the characters were written. The kids just did things with innocent, kid like motives and ended up stumbling on truths the adults were too set in their ways to see all along. Summed up by their "I learned something today" to spell it out if need be, while preserving the kid's fresh perspectives on the world.

Basically hose truths were always Matt & Trey's opinions but they were written into the show in a way that made more sense coming from kid characters.

basically Matt & Trey's opinions are about as nuanced and thoughtful as a 10 year old's.

we only thought this because Matt and Trey hadn't done five bazillion interviews about their views and how they influence the show yet

yeah the moralizing while pretending not to be moralizing thing is there from the start

There's plenty to criticize about South Park, but most of the criticism I read/hear is roughly on par with, "I really hate it when Cartman gets anal probed and when Stan barfs on Wendy and also I hope we make it through this Y2K thing okay".

I really hate when they do their unrepentantly racist depictions of asians

Overall, there's maybe been a slight but barely percepible dip in overall quality, that's probably to be expected from any show that's been on for sixteen seasons. But the last season produced a couple of the best episodes of the whole series, so there isn't really too much to complain about if you were ever a fan.

I agree. I think the season before last (?) left me a little cold, and I thought maybe I was done with them but yeah there were some corkers last season, the arc with Stan's parents splitting up was outstanding.

Yeah, you'll notice upthread that I made that same point, Shakey. It's pretty indefensible, and it's a shame that dumb shit like that has to compromise the general high quality they've maintained.

I can't remember which episodes are from which season. was the cooking show/shakeweight one last season? cuz that was great.

the eventual reveal on the City Wok manager sort of redeemed that character for me and made me think they were done with their comedy racist Asian depictions, and then I saw the HSN episode and was a little sad inside

although the person I know who appears to be the biggest fan of the South Park depiction of Asians is Taiwanese-American; he constantly quotes "our penis VERY SMALL" at people

I think that's the thing about the South Park shtick, like I'm Jewish + I think their most 'vicious'/over the top Jew stuff is hilarious, the more base and ridiculous and nailing every single stereotype the better imo.

I loved the Passover episode last week

same here, my wife (who is Mexican) feels the same way, the offensive stuff isn't really that offensive once you realize they treat everyone that way, and she thinks that the show's depiction of Mexican/American relations is spot on

oh that was an xp

also to comment on this:

I don't think South Park sucks that bad now but I consider the first 3 1/2 seasons at least to be a much, much different and better program altogether.

I do know what you mean, but really, they can't just go back to those days. On the flip side, some of the recent stuff - particularly the ending of the HSN epsiode, or the last one, the whole thing with Stan turning cynical, etc. - that's not something they could have done in the old days. I agree that the digital animation kind of hampers the show's personality, but at the same time they're capable of so much more now, and I do think there's a lot more subtlety to the show these days

they treat everyone that way

weakass rationalization

about half of the original season episodes are really, really hamfisted and haven't aged well; the show didn't really hit a consistent, rewatchable groove until "Mr Hankey, The Christmas Poo" (although special shout-out to "Weight Gain 4000")

I have issues with how Jews are depicted on this show too, but it feels more like in-fighting with fellow Jews given Stone's involvement - also it's not as egregious as the asian stuff, which is shamelessly trotted out EVERY SINGLE TIME they depict an asian.

"i'm an equal opportunity offender" is the fucking lamest shit imo

Not as lame as never offending anybody

weakass rationalization

"i'm an equal opportunity offender" is the fucking lamest shit imo

I'm not speaking for Matt & Trey, I'm sure they get off on pissing people off. I'm just saying why I don't really find the show offensive (as opposed to something like Family Guy)

'equal ops.' = pretty gd defence, as long as the jk is also funny. And 'city wok' fails to be funny the more you repeat it, unfortunately.

The "Coon & Friends" trilogy wasn't too long ago which they pretty much nailed IMO.. This was followed by Creme Fraiche which closed out the season... Then, throughout 2011 I felt as they they hit a slump because they were too preoccupied with The Book Of Mormon, which resulted in a bummer of a season.. However, the slump has ended, and the last 3 episodes have all be great! So hopefully they're back in the game...

Between the jewelry channel huckster and this week's tour group members with their "Long story short..."-ing, I'm suddenly aware of how acute an observer and mimic of colloquial speech Trey Parker has become.

Mr. Garrison’s “history” lesson on Game Of Thrones early on is a hysterical throw-away gag, but it also helps illuminate the power plays going on throughout the episode. Sure, it’s a stretch to compare the happenings in Westeros with those in this quiet Colorado town. But Cartman’s Machiavellian techniques employ misdirection, lies, the spreading of rumors, and the use of the bully pulpit to stir the masses, maneuver his enemies, and protect his loved ones. (A Lannister always pays his debts, and a Cartman always ensures that he gets his way.)

Between the jewelry channel huckster and this week's tour group members with their "Long story short..."-ing, I'm suddenly aware of how acute an observer and mimic of colloquial speech Trey Parker has become.

I wanted to make a point about this but yeah this is basically OTM. My chief complaint about Family Guy now is how hard they fail at doing this.

This week's episode was amazing. I think trying to scale back the number of "laughs" each episode has is helping them quite a bit.

"the slump has ended, and the last 3 episodes have all be great!"
i haven't watched regularly for a while -- if you had to pick 5 to watch from the last 5 years which ones would they be (allowing that some episodes may have dated poorly)?

re: family guy -- how is it more offensive? south park seems more culpable in that kids are more likely to emulate it. (the commentary on the shitty beef episode had them guiltily cackling when they recounted how they heard some kid in a store doing "shitty beef" over and over)

I don't know if that's really a good measure of what's offensive. I would think kids are drawn to both shows.

The difference to me is that when Cartman says racist/sexist/anti-sementic shit, the other characters call him out on it, and it's shown to have some real consequences to it, where as when Peter off-handedly mentions "women and Mexicans suck" or whatever it just cuts away to the next scene.

"anti-sementic shit"

i think you mean anti-semantic shit.

i agree that kids probably like family guy, too, but it's less kid-oriented -- all the characters are the wrong age to embody. also, family guy doesn't engage in quite as much sermonizing, so it doesn't set itself up as a voice of moral authority like south park does. basically, family guy is gilbert gottfried, and south park is kevin smith, and it's easier to find kevin smith more offensive?

i can get behind that, though i don't think "shitty wok" is a good example, since that's a joke FG would have certainly beaten to the ground even faster, had they thought of it

i haven't watched regularly for a while -- if you had to pick 5 to watch from the last 5 years which ones would they be (allowing that some episodes may have dated poorly)?

cheating by picking multipart episodes

"You're Getting Old"/"Ass Burgers"
"Coon 2: Hindsight"/"Mysterion Rises"/"Coon vs Coon and Friends"
"Butters' Bottom Bitch"
"Major Boobage"
"Imaginationland I"/"Imaginationland II"/"Imaginationland III"

Can't disagree with any of that. You're Getting Old is one of the best ever.

yeah seriously, it's easily one of my top five favorites

oh man i forgot about Awesome Boobage

yeah "You're Getting Old" and "Ass Burgers" are really something, I don't think I've seen another episode of any show like it.

also want to add "The Last of the Meheecans", "Creme Fraiche", "200/201", and "The Tale of Scrotie McBoogerballs" as being really good recent ones. that aired yesterday was also pretty great.

ha I was just about to say something about Scrotie McBoogerballs, the ep was great

I'm disappointed in myself that it took me so long to remember what "Mantequilla" meant in the Meeheecans ep

last season was really good actually, now that I'm looking at the list of episodes (I didn't see "Funnybot" but everything else was good to fantastic)

Funnybot was the one I spent the most time debating whether it was actually funny or not

Funnybot has the whole Dalek thing that doesn't work, and the German thing that doesn't work.

We are all missing out Royal Pudding. "As is tradition..."

haha I was ambivalent on that one until the ending

Yeah, it's really a toss-up as to which of "Scott Tenorman Must Die" or "You're Getting Old"/"Ass Burgers" is my absolute favorite, but they are, collectively, the best episodes of the series and some of the best episodes of television ever.