Let's talk about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, and how unbelievably fucked up this all is

it's repugnant because the source was so predictable

repugnant is just a pretty strong word

well i would call all of his music repugnant, so

lol fair enough

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/05/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

so zimmerman told his lawyers he said "punks" on the phone, not "coons". bullshit.

we don't really know what he said

it really doesn't sound like punks

We still don't know shit about much of this - or at least, we know very little definitively - but we know enough that first degree murder really shouldn't be off the table (assuming it isn't; we have no idea). Regardless of outcome, dude saw Trayvon, dude was armed, dude pursued Trayvon, dude shot Trayvon. A conviction is one thing, but even an average lawyer should be able to demonstrate intent in this instance.

the hacked sign thing reads more like chan-style racism than klan-style racism tbh

― easter back, somebody call the binks truck (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, April 9, 2012 7:12 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

not that one is BETTER exactly, but the former at least crushes my soul a little less

― easter back, somebody call the binks truck (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, April 9, 2012 7:13 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

let me just say that when the slurs are directed towards you, they are equally as soul-crushing

also, when otherwise rational people say shit like this, it's enraging

not that one is BETTER exactly

― easter back, somebody call the binks truck (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, April 9, 2012 7:13 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't understand the distinction you're trying to make tbh

when the slurs are directed towards you, they are equally as soul-crushing

― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:20 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Klan = grown adults with unfiltered, actual hate in their hearts for a group of human beings they feel is inferior. Chan = Bored bronies who want to say "shocking" things to troll the world.

I agree 100% with DJP that end result is equally terrible, but thinking too hard about the former makes me feel much sadder for the human condition. The former spawned Hitler and Idi Amin. The latter spawned Odd Future.

to draw the distinction at all requires that you be coming from a place of privilege i.e. that you're not going to be the person actually feeling the brunt of the attack

People can't have different motivations for saying things?

who gives a fuck what someone's motivation for being hurtful dick is

so we can deal with the problem of racism in america?

People can't have different motivations for saying things?

it doesn't matter at all what their motivation is if you're the person on the receiving end, which you aren't. you are reporting on how it seems to you from your place of white privilege, to be blunt about it. imo the best response to a person who can actually be on the receiving end of racism/marginalization explaining how this shit actually plays out IRL is to accept the explanation and modify your understanding of the phenomenon, not defend the parsing you have which comes from privilege.

I know that online the use of "privilege" is often an attacking stance; it's not, here, from me; I also know when one calls anybody "privileged" they tend to get defensive. but where whiteness is concerned, privilege applies across the board as I understand it

but more simply, it's like, of course Odd Future yelling "faggot" a lot doesn't bother you; they're not talking about you, you're not going to suffer as a result, so you parse it differently. you have that privilege. that's why dickheads like me get all lit up about Odd Future.

Why are you saying it doesn't bother me?

Why are you thinking that the sign doesnt bother me? I wrote it like a half-dozen times that this is just as bad as if a klan dude did it

No, you didn't. Re-read what you wrote; you said "it's not exactly better but it isn't as soul-crushing". Which is bullshit.

Why are you saying it doesn't bother me?

you are drawing a false distinction to which you are attached. the distinction you're drawing is like saying it matters why somebody punched me. it doesn't matter a bit to my jaw.

it DOES matter why someone punched you, that's why we have hate crime laws

Klan = grown adults with unfiltered, actual hate in their hearts for a group of human beings they feel is inferior. Chan = Bored bronies who want to say "shocking" things to troll the world.

i dont think theres nearly this much of a difference tbh

if someone punched you because they hate your race or sexual orientation, YES I DO think that is worse than if someone punched you because they thought it would be funny to punch someone.

Whiney...I think your heart's in the right place, but that perspective is just so massively wrongheaded. The 4chan fucks might not be committing overt hate crimes per se, but they're perpetuating the mindset that allows people who do commit hate crimes to feel that they have implicit support from outside of their own community. Anyone who perpetuates that mindset, whatever their motive or level of ironic remove, is a subhuman piece of shit IMHO.

it DOES matter why someone punched you, that's why we have hate crime laws

― easter back, somebody call the binks truck (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:42 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

okay but both sides of the distinction you tried to make fall under 'hate crime laws'

Agree with Deric 100%

to my jaw, it doesn't matter at all. my jaw does not give a shit about the law.

I know it's gonna be impossible to do this w/o you getting all lit up so this is pointless but you are making an argument that comes from privilege. none of the distinctions you are drawing will have IRL effects in your life, which is why they seem tenable to you. to a person who will experience discrimination/racism (and I'd throw in a bunch of other -isms there too, but let's stay in focus), those distinctions are total, 100% bullshit afaik. But I too am reporting a privileged understanding here so idk I could have a fair bit of this wrong

I guess when I think about/rationalize that stuff it's just me trying to comfort myself into believing there's not as much Capital H Hate in the human condition.

But everyone otm that it's not my problem to worry about or distinction to make

I think the only way one can quantify offense is to begin with the cynical proposition that we are a horrible, hateful society, and that racism is so pervasive that, yes, it exists in degrees. Which may be true in both cases, depending on your perspective, which does not hinge on privilege. I see/experience degrees of anti-Semitism all the time, or at least more than I should (which is to say, it should be nil), but that does not mean I take equal offense at each instance. It's all pretty relative, though.

basically, junior high taught me that hate is mankind's default setting

I see/experience degrees of anti-Semitism all the time, or at least more than I should (which is to say, it should be nil), but that does not mean I take equal offense at each instance

yes, me too, intent actually matters a lot, comparing this shit to getting punched in the jaw is a pretty horrible analogy

Most hate seems to be rooted in misdirection engaged in by those with power which suggests that there is some Other that keeps people from getting theirs, when really it's mostly the powerful and the societal structure they maintain and people's own ignorance that keeps them down. It's just easier, I guess, to direct your anger at somebody who doesn't look/act like you than to trade punches with deeply-entrenched and unwavering institutions.

so those subhuman pieces of shit you were talking about earlier aren't really the Other stopping everyone from Just Getting Along, yr just venting because its easier?

basically, junior high taught me that hate is mankind's default setting

― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:57 AM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^

They're two separate arguments, ogmor. Hateful people's ignorance of why they're hateful doesn't make them any less subhumanly shitty.

http://feministing.com/2012/04/10/quick-hit-zimmerman-launches-website-with-photos-of-vandalized-cultural-center/

http://feministing.com/files/2012/04/zimmerman.jpg

the spray paint on the building? yup, it's the black cultural center at ohio state

http://www.thelantern.com/mobile/campus/long-live-zimmerman-on-hale-hall-ohio-state-s-black-cultural-center-1.2840151

there is, on some level, something to enjoy about the fact that a white supremacist in 2012 has to side w/ a partially hispanic dude w/ the last name 'zimmerman'

deric i'm not sure yr righteousness will prove a useful weapon in this battle

ha wow not arresting this guy immediately is beginning to look like it's not gonna work out in his favor

Really not sure what you're talking about, ogmor. Those posts were in response to slight detours from the core discussion itt, not to anything specifically relating to the Trayvon Martin case. Assuming that's what you're getting at.

do you not think that deeming ppl who fall foul of yr moral code 'subhuman' is mb dubious & unhelpful ?

there is, on some level, something to enjoy about the fact that a white supremacist in 2012 has to side w/ a partially hispanic dude w/ the last name 'zimmerman'

unless you happen to be black I guess

do you not think that deeming ppl who fall foul of yr moral code 'subhuman' is mb dubious & unhelpful ?

No, I don't think it's especially dubious to call people 'subhuman' when they engage in hateful actions towards other people because they are different than them. What exactly is the 'helpful' way to approach people like that? For the record, I think most people are capable of redemption, but they want to want to redeem themselves. To the extent that people choose to behave like pieces of shit, though, I reserve the right to call them out for behaving like pieces of shit. I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make.

Wanna point out, again (since we're veering away from the point of this thread), that I'm not talking specifically about the Trayvon Martin case.

well lumping bronyism with the KKK does feel a bit insulting all around

I don't think it's especially dubious to call people 'subhuman' when they engage in hateful actions towards other people

more accurate to call them 'human' imho, but ok

that graffiti, christ. i have a gut feeling that before this finishes playing out, something is going to burn.

Call them reptilian. That's the part of the brain that's active.

Dear some people itt: bending over backwards to defend the essential humanity of virulent racists is maybe a little nagl.