Let's talk about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, and how unbelievably fucked up this all is

I think how one comports oneself and how one dresses are perfectly valid reasons for someone to feel "threatened," depending on the context. But as many on this thread have noted, they are literally never an excuse to shoot someone. Guy wanted to be a dick, guy's allowed to call the police. Guy shouldn't be allowed to follow, shoot and kill a kid. Period.

"valid" != "understandable"

sorry but hoodies are awesome. if it wasn't always 93 degrees in FL I'd wear them way more often. but then again I'm white so I wouldn't be considered a 'thug', I'd be 'stylish', rite?

no

It's totally "valid," depending on the context. I don't think it was in this case, though. Though it was "understandable," given this guy was likely a racist vigilante.

'stylish' is not a word i usually associate with hoodies or white floridians tbhw/u

you guys haven't seen stylish until you've seen a white Canadian with sunburnt knees walking down Ocean Drive.

I think how one comports oneself and how one dresses are perfectly valid reasons for someone to feel "threatened"

wrong

It is valid to feel threatened by someone based on how they are behaving towards you; for example, if they are staring at you, shouting at you, running after you, grabbing you, pointing a weapon at you, etc etc etc. What a person is wearing plays into how some of these actions are interpreted but that doesn't make the response "valid" unless all subconscious responses are "valid".

Someone wearing dark clothing walking down the sidewalk is not automatically a suspicious person. Someone wearing dark clothing peering into a first floor window while hiding behind a bush is suspicious, but not because they are wearing dark clothing.

I think how one comports oneself and how one dresses are perfectly valid reasons for someone to feel "threatened," depending on the context. But as many on this thread have noted, they are literally never an excuse to shoot someone. Guy wanted to be a dick, guy's allowed to call the police. Guy shouldn't be allowed to follow, shoot and kill a kid. Period.

― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 28 March 2012 13:31 (42 minutes ago) Permalink

Maybe if they are walking straight toward you? But what does this have to do with choosing to follow someone?

It really baffles me that this is a law. God help this country once we get commercial-class drones.

hey i'm sure certain ppl feel "threatened" by a man in woman's clothing

depends on what kind of bar you're in

Like I said, the "following" part - plus of course the shooting part - was totally unjustified and invalid. But feeling threatened is an entirely subjective thing, short of being literally threatened. If I see a dude rocking a shaved head and swastika, I'm crossing the street.

I'm speaking generally, of course. Dude in a hoodie is not threatening (to me). But that other dude still had every right to call the cops if he was getting weird vibes, racist weird vibes or no. And then he should have been arrested for following and shooting the kid, no matter the context.

Y'know, I'm a pretty little dude, and sometimes when I've walked alone at night in rough neighborhoods, I'd kinda hunch over and start muttering to myself in the hopes that anyone who might've considered fucking with me will maybe question whether it's worth the hassle. In the spirit of that, I'm okay with Trayvon adopting whatever pose he needed to in order to (unsuccessfully) fend off some strange dude who was trailing him. That shit must've been like a horror movie to him, and it breaks my heart the more I think of the particulars of being in his shoes that night.

josh your argument validates a lot of stupid horrible reasons for feeling threatened and i don't understand how it's even relevant

But feeling threatened is an entirely subjective thing, short of being literally threatened.

This sentence is way more on point for Martin in this situation than it is for Zimmerman. He was being fucking followed!

For sure, 100%! That's why that law is fucked up. It makes no sense. But Trayvon had every right to react however he did, just as Zimmerman did (calling the police, not the following and shooting, obviously). That sort of shit happens all the time, sometimes for good reason, sometimes for bad reasons, but no one gets hurt.

Elmo, my point is that there have been a number of times I've felt threatened - not to mention called the police - for reasons beyond "I am being attacked." People have the right to feel threatened.

wtf dude you don't have the right to call the cops simply cuz the presence of somebody makes you uncomfortable if they aren't doing anything to make you feel that way!

at mean at some point in your life you have to own that your mental illness is your own.

But feeling threatened is an entirely subjective thing, short of being literally threatened. If I see a dude rocking a shaved head and swastika, I'm crossing the street.

OTM. This is a huge hole in the dude's story. If you are threatened you want to get away from what is threatening you, not get closer to it.

not if you're a self-appointed sheriff like Zimmerman.

Zimmerman apparently called the police on black men an awful lot. Even on little children. And apparently thought 911 was for things like potholes, garbage and stray dogs.

It seems more and more likely that this dude was a real-life Travis Bickle.

weird vibes is kind of my default social interaction

And no one is arguing that. Like I've been saying, I'm speaking generally. This Zimmerman dude was itching for wrongdoing.

Anyway, anecdotal case in point. I was in my backyard during the day, trying to watch the kids run around, when I see some dude out the corner of my eye start wandering down my driveway toward the backyard. I yelled at him to stop and go away, and he did. But I still called the police. Where I live, people's houses get burgled during the day all the time, crimes of opportunity. My house has been robbed during the day, where someone snuck in, grabbed a couple of things (camera, phone) and disappeared, all in a five minute window. So was I threatened? No. Was I suspicious. Yes. And the cops told me I did the right thing.

xpost ish.

I mean, I'd be lying if I claimed I was such a hard, city-dwelling dude that nothing scared or fazed me, but it happens.

wtf dude you don't have the right to call the cops simply cuz the presence of somebody makes you uncomfortable if they aren't doing anything to make you feel that way!

You can call the cops anytime you like, but in a perfect world, you'd face the consequences of calling the cops over bullshit. Just like in a perfect world you'd at least be arrested and face a trial if you shot a kid to death.

His calling the police wasn't really the issue here anyway. It's pretty much superfluous to what happened, given that he decided to play police himself.

someone's clothing or appearance might be a reason for you or me to feel threatened, but i wouldn't generally say it's a good or "perfectly valid" reason

It's not perfect, but it's valid.

at mean at some point in your life you have to own that your mental illness is your own.

― Bo Jackson Overdrive, Wednesday, March 28, 2012 10:51 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

this is kind of idiotic, just fwiw

i mean it's valid to feel threatened by whatever you want... but the threshold for approaching someone with a loaded gun is much, MUCH higher -- arguably unattainably high

And not a person on this thread is arguing otherwise.

We done here?

haha ok, everyone's irrational prejudices and fears are valid, and it's okay to get scared and defensive about anything you want, good job everyone

I mean Josh you are now just arguing over what the word "valid" means. Most people take it to mean something like "logically consistent". You want to use it to mean something like "true from my point of view". There can be no agreement if the definition is that divergent.

You're probably right. But I guess I'd argue that "logically consistent" is an unattainable standard outside of the realm of hard science.

Anyway, that's moot, really.

i just avoided getting into a taxi because the driver was wearing a turban. totally valid reason!

i'm afraid those italian-looking guys in shiny suits at the next table might be in the mob! check please! valid.

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i mean it's valid to feel threatened by whatever you want... but the threshold for approaching someone with a loaded gun is much, MUCH higher -- arguably unattainably high

― J0rdan S., Wednesday, March 28, 2012 10:05 AM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark

conflating 'valid' with 'valid reason to call the cops'

i mean by the logic i'm seeing itt we're basically saying 'hey if someone feels threatened by all black ppl it's perfectly ok for him to call the cops when he sees one on the sidewalk'

conflating 'valid' with 'valid reason to call the cops'

― Bo Jackson Overdrive, Wednesday, March 28, 2012 11:36 AM (38 seconds ago) Bookmark

no i wasn't doing that at all

i'm afraid those italian-looking guys in shiny suits at the next table might be in the mob! check please! valid.

Yeah but you didn't grab your gun and follow them to their cars.

worst episode of MADE ever

Elmo, I think you're being silly.

^ Sure that sentence is heard at least once a day in every household with small kids.

but j0rdan the context itt of stating what is and isn't a 'valid' reason to be threatened is that Zimmermann did call the cops as a result of this feeling of being 'threatened'. had he not approached Trayvon and there had been no gunshots, the cop that showed up probably would have told him something like "let's not call us for something like this again, k?" (from my knowledge of this particular police dept and their laziness).

when I said you have to make your mental illness your own, to be frank...I'm one of the most overanxious dudes in the entire world. if someone approachs me in public, or in my car, even if it's to ask for directions, my eyes go to the ground and I usually start getting tense. I'm often paranoid to the point of ridiculousness and still even if haven't called 911 on somebody who was doing something as innocuous as loitering.

when I said you have to make your mental illness your own, to be frank...I'm one of the most overanxious dudes in the entire world. if someone approachs me in public, or in my car, even if it's to ask for directions, my eyes go to the ground and I usually start getting tense. I'm often paranoid to the point of ridiculousness and still even if haven't called 911 on somebody who was doing something as innocuous as loitering.

― Bo Jackson Overdrive, Wednesday, March 28, 2012 11:41 AM (3 seconds ago) Bookmark

this doesn't sound like a mental illness tbf, and i'm not sure george zimmerman was mentally ill (maybe he was), but telling mentally ill people to "own" their illnesses is pretty fucked up, i think